Would Jesus refute theTelevangelists?

Beliefnet Community > Thread - Human Dignity, Good and Evil:

Yes, it does matter [when Paul lived], because people that knew Jesus were still alive, and therefore would have attempted to correct him or refute him, if his info about Jesus was incorrect.
El Cid

"Paul was creating a cult based on Jesus Christ, not Jesus. The only relationship of Jesus of Nazareth to Jesus Christ was the hijacking of his name and charisma. The three Synoptic Gospels which were written after Paul, are a systematic and largely successful exercise in correcting and refuting Paul.

It is impossible to read Paul with the synoptics open in three other bibles and find anything in the synoptics that supports anything in Paul. It is almost a trivial exercise in reading comprehension to find a refutation of Paul's misanthropy and misogyny in any random passage from the words of Jesus in one of the three gospels. If you do it in the other direction that is read the synoptics and try to find anything at all in Paul's misanthropy and misogyny that relates to the Jesus you find in the synoptics, you will find absolutely nothing.

I find the evidence for the existence of Jesus, the itinerant preacher and entertainer, persuasive. He would be a great televangelist today and as then he would refute all the Pauline garbage preached by the followers of his competitor in the religious leader industry."

What would Jesus do? If he were alive today would he have a television ministry based in a megachurch in Marin County? It sure wouldn't be in LaLa Land. Would he be regaling against the preachers of hate for your neighbors of the wrong religion, color, or sexual preference? Would he be successful?

I think the answers to all of the above would be yes. We are seeing a return to the gospels, particularly the Two Great Commandments in many local congregations in many of the big denominations. Certainly the bigots are the loudest and sell the lead in and follow up ads and so are supported by the networks or at least the cable companies. Someone foaming at the mouth at a gay person's funeral will get a spot on the news just like a train wreck. All the news companies care about is eyeballs, they don't care if the eyeball is blurry from booze or not, well, they do boozers buy. Train wrecks sell ads, and any train wreck will do. An emotional train wreck is as good, or maybe better than a steel one. They can milk it longer.

Why do I ask so many Why's?

Thread - Is there a moral position without God?:

"The three year olds I know would never accept the cop out of Goddidit. They want to know why in terms they can understand and wrap their rapidly growing minds around. I would feel that Goddidit would be a real damper on that vibrant inquisitiveness that is the birthright of all humans."

Since they weren't stunted by Goddidit most of the kids I dealt with were 2 or so when they got into the Why?'s, and many of them never got over it. One I know got the nickname of Rikki for Rikki Tikky Tavi because she always had to "Run and find out." I suspect that after 30 odd years she is still running and finding out. No one ever told her she had to ask God's permission to do so.

The title of the post is reputed to be an actual question of J'Carlin at 2. (The "J" was more important then which is why it is part of J'Carlin). I hope it is true. I want to know everything and I want to know why about everything. I'll never get there but I will try.

Moral Standards

Is there a moral position without God?:

"Morals are not beliefs they are behavior patterns bred into us over millions of years of being dependent on our social group for survival. Doing what we must for the good of the social group is the beginning and the end of moral behavior. If the social group is religious, doing what the mediator says God wants is part of the package. Many of us have a more cosmopolitan social group see Appiah, Cosmopolitanism - Ethics in a World of Strangers and the insular and usually xenophobic morality of religious groups just does not work for us."

Atheism for Theists

Thread - Can there be a moral position without God?:

"Many have a hard time with atheism as they try to map it into a belief system. It is not a belief system, it is simply a way of managing life without a deity to blame things on. Life itself is far from random, natural selection insures that only advantageous changes are conserved. Life is a series of events, most predictable but some indeed random that must be dealt with in a reasonable and for most atheists a rational manner. An atheist will waste no time trying to second guess a deity or try to get the deity to intercede, hesh will deal with events as they are for good or for bad and try to emerge with life and integrity intact."

What Makes Us Human?: Scientific American

What Makes Us Human?: Scientific American: "It turns out that until humans came along, HAR1 evolved extremely slowly. In chickens and chimps—whose lineages diverged some 300 million years ago—only two of the 118 bases differ, compared with 18 differences between humans and chimps, whose lineages diverged far more recently. The fact that HAR1 was essentially frozen in time through hundreds of millions of years indicates that it does something very important; that it then underwent abrupt revision in humans suggests that this function was significantly modified in our lineage."

And HAR1 is only one, and it doesn't even code a protein. It simply! regulates the protein coding genes around it. Great article well worth reading for anyone interested in genetics.

Spirit continuation after death.

Belief Corner: Religious and Political Debate - agnostic atheist and agnostic theist?: "UPGs are not particularly reliable in dealing with the unknowable. If there is any continuation of the spirit after death, highly unlikely in my UPG, but possible, we will all go to the same place when we die. It will be a natural continuation of the way we lived unmediated by supernatural influences. In other words it will be a completely natural continuation of the spirit we nurtured while alive. Which tells me that whether a UPG includes an afterlife or not, one better be sure that the spirit they are nurturing in this life is one which they would like to live with forever. My guess is that it is WYSIWYG once it posts after death."

Those who think Pascal's wager will make any difference after death seem to me to be taking the short end of the odds if they are neglecting their personal spiritual enrichment in this life. I wonder what it would be like to spend eternity in Westboro Baptist Church? Sure sounds like Hell to me.

Moral Standard

moral position without God?: "Lavengro wrote:

Could someone tell me what this [moral] standard is, whence it derives?

I don't know about others but my standard is that the welfare, defined as satisfaction with the life they are living, of those in the society which I choose as my own, is a higher priority than even my own welfare. This is a genetic imperative derived from countless generations of primate ancestors for whom group welfare was a necessary condition for survival. The society definition is historically a village, even cities have historically been collections of village sized neighborhoods, although in cities some villages may overlap.

This genetic imperative has usually been co-opted by mediators for Gods, and occasionally by national leaders, by imposing a society on individuals either by indoctrination or more rarely by coercion. Churches have transferred the society from the village to the parish but the concept remains the same."

The difference for me is that I do not accept another's definition of what my society is. I may consider those outside my society as being important and worthy of consideration, but they are not covered by the obligation I accept for my society, and become a different consideration where my welfare and that of my society takes precedence.

Arguing with a belief.

beliefnet :

"To argue with a belief is to tilt at a windmill. The sails keep going round and round, with any damage to the sails ignored rather than repaired. One gets the impression that if the sails are shredded completely, the believer will turn the crank hermself to keep the sails moving."

One gets to the point that there is nothing left to tilt at. The sails are completely gone. At that point one can only say, as belief is usually God related, "God Bless You, it is all you have left."

Is Evolution a Science?

Thread - Is Evolution a Science?:

"Evolution is alive and well for humans, it just doesn't involve physical survival to breed anymore. It is a given in a modern technological society that mortality prior to adulthood is minimal, and evolution is focused on how adults are able to cope with living in that modern technological society. Numbers are no longer a measure of fitness, indeed out breeding resources without the technology to manage those resources is evidence of lack of fitness for survival in a modern society and the results speak for themselves. The wars and genocides in Africa and the Middle East and the slaughter of millions of citizens by modern despots while deplorable, can be thought of as evolution in action. Evolution has never been kind to the less fit by whatever standard species fitness is determined.

Evolution is occurring in Bangalore, Shanghai, parts of the US and a few other areas of the planet. It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out over the next few generations. I suspect that those parts of the US where creationism is taught in science class, will find themselves among the unfit. The country is rich enough and benevolent enough to provide all with a couch and a TV to keep them off the streets, but it will be interesting to see if their religion provides them with meaning and purpose to get off the couch even to breed."

Evolution like economics is a dismal science.

God beliefs

Bread and Circuses: "Mar 27, 2009 - 06:20AM, artboyz wrote:

There is only one reason to be an atheist, and we all agree: There is no rational reason to believe in God.

'There is no reason to personally believe in God.' works better for me. Rational or irrational there is no argument that points to God for me. I put the personal reference in there because many atheists, I am one of them, find many reasons, rational and irrational, for others to believe in God. I also agree that existential issues are not germane, nor are definitional issues for God.

CaliberCadillac seems to enjoy the bread and circuses provided by his Christ. If he is hungry the loaves and fishes will sustain him. If his boat is sinking someone will walk across the water to save him. If he is needy God bless him.

I have other ways of dealing with hunger, danger, and other needs, and I think they are much more effective, but I certainly wouldn't suggest them to CaliberCadillac. They all take rational, intelligently directed action. Faith and prayer only get in the way."

In line with my long time thinking that one should let the believers believe. It seems that very few have the wherewithal to think for themselves about important issues. They do what they can to earn their tithe, and let the guy in the fancy dress worry about everything else.

Unitarians v Universalists v atheists

Unitarians v Universalists: "Mar 29, 2009 - 04:53AM, RevDorris wrote:

The children are in a state of rebellion against those who would want us to deny the existence of God. They want a return to God centered worship and open spiritual training and development.
Rev Dorris

I am am one of those children rebelling against those who deny God in UU churches. I find those churches where God is a three letter word, never to be said out loud or even lusted after in the heart to be sterile exercises in community building and frequently social action, both of which are desireable but IMO have nothing to do with spiritual growth. A Sunday morning gender inclusive Rotary meeting or Elks club.

For a UU church to gain my support it must be a diverse community of Paul denying Christians; hopefully a few ex-Jews that still cling to their Jewish roots and ritual; Pagans who wish to share and enrich their spirituality with the 'Unitarians' who only have one God; maybe a smattering of others who found other traditional religions too confining, and a few atheists to remind all that God is not necessary for spirituality.

And the sine qua non for me is a music program where no spiritual music is forbidden. Catholic Prayers? Jewish hazzanut? Buddhist Chants? Lutheran Hymns? Bring 'em all on. These folks have had hundreds if not thousands of years of refining the music that connects people to their higher being whatever that is. And believers are needed to bring the passion, in the best sense of the word, to the music."

I am glad to hear from Rev Dorris that the children are rebelling. I quit rebelling a while ago and found other ways to feed my spiritual needs without a pile of rocks (or bricks) and a guy in a fancy dress to help. I was not happy to do so, but I never was into Rotary and found my social needs satisfied in other venues than churches. Social action was much more satisfying with direct participation unguided by the guy in the fancy dress and politically correctness of the causes. I was usually ahead of the UU's in political correctness and got tired of pulling them along.

I found the internet early on as a source of spirituality APOD for example, and since most of my social group was scattered all over the country email was an early substitute for coffee hour.

I think churches of all denominations need to be aware of and beware of Web 2.0. Any church that doesn't have a Web 2.0 site based on DRUPAL or the equivalent is probably going to have to build one or die. And soon.

The problem of evil ..

Thread - The Bright Line...: "Mar 25, 2009 - 05:22PM, Leight wrote:

....addressing the problem of evil..... first of all you/I/everyone is straitjacketed in evil, that is a sin nature that is all dimensional and personal, your flesh, hormones, cravings ect....

Sorry the sin nature was invented by Paul as a marketing ploy for his Savior. Since everybody has flesh, hormones, cravings and especially sexual cravings, (note that all animals that have survived as a species have an intense drive to reproduce or they would be extinct) Paul said this drive and all of its variations including missionary position sex for the express purpose of reproduction are sin but the last one is forgivable presumably so that Christians don't join the extinct species that didn't have a reproductive drive. Nonetheless making a Christian baby is a sin, so you better hang it on the cross and get your GOOHF ticket for it.

But most Christians say if reproducing is sin we might as well have fun doing it and hang that on the cross along with the missionary sex and maybe God won't notice and give us the GOOHF card anyway. From there it is a slippery slope to hating neighbors, killing enemies, kinky sex, drugs, and rock and roll. Some call this atheism but notice that the GOOHF card is in the back pocket to hang on the cross which means that God is still looking over the shoulder. As long as God is there it ain't atheism by definition."

Atheists don't have a cross to hang the bad things they do on, so they tend to pay attention to everything they do so that they don't have to pick up the pieces when they break something. No supernatural omnipotent alpha humanoid to kiss it and make it better either for the injured or the injurer.

Mediocrity

Beware of the lollipop of mediocrity...one lick and you suck forever...

From Elizabeth's friend Andy via facebook.

Musicians' brains keep time--With one another: Scientific American Blog

Musicians' brains keep time--With one another: Scientific American Blog: "Ever wonder how musicians manage to play in unison? Credit their brain waves: they synchronize before and while musicians play a composition, according to new research."

And people say ESP is a myth. If randomly selected musicians, that is unrelated, can synchronize brain waves just to play a random piece of music, in a lab yet, with no audience to play to or play off of, what can be said of the brain waves of a chorus or orchestra in a hall full of people wanting to participate in the experience. Or. hold on to your God beliefs here, pro or anti, what about a church full of people singing hymns and praying to God. Can it be that the synchrony creates God, or perhaps recreates the God of the previous meetings back as far a the religion can trace its roots? Oh yeah, I forgot, they could be synchronizing with their supernatural omnipotent alpha humanoid in the sky, or more likely with the little tinhorn in the fancy dress in the overdecorated balcony.

In any event if synchronizing brain waves isn't ESP, just what is it? I think the skeptics need to examine the evidence and take a closer look at some of the phenomena they love to debunk.

YEC vs Homo Sapiens.

Thread - where is the apeman??

From Ken : "Young Earth Creationists don't belong to the species Homo sapiens. They believe they were created from 'the dust of the ground' about six thousand years ago. If they're right, they can't be related to those of us who evolved from countless generations of animals during millions upon millions of years. We're Homo sapiens. They're a kind of pottery."

ID in Science Class?

Belief Corner: THE Atheist Bible!: "Re: THE Atheist Bible!
« Reply #42 on: Today at 02:05:14 PM »


Quote from: jcarlinsv on Today at 01:12:48 PM

Never attempt to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Lazarus Long - RAHeinlein 1973

In fact the whole paragraph that it was extracted from is relevant to the topic of Ken Ham.

I have never swindled a man. At most I kept quiet and let him swindle himself. This does no harm, as a fool cannot be protected from his folly. If you attempt to do so, you will not only arouse his animosity but also you will be attempting to deprive him of whatever benefit he is capable of deriving from experience. Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Time Enough for Love, Robert A Heinlein p31, 1973

Ken Ham is providing a useful service to those unable to deal with the complexities of science, with complex issues of morality, and taking responsibility for their own behavior. The answers are all there in Genesis: God created you, you sinned, Hesh destroyed your world because of your sin. Believe faithfully and Christ will save you."

Do I feel sorry for the pigs Ken Ham is singing to? No. If they are incapable of dealing with the the modern world, and their religion gives them solace and the ability to do whatever they do to earn their tithe who am I to tell them they are fools? Would they thank me for it? Not a chance.

I am even coming to think that creationism in a science class in school is a good idea. Anyone capable of science will recognize it for the BS it is and move on. Those that need the BS to get them through the day will use it to get through science class to finger painting or shop or home ec. or whatever they are capable of doing.

Placebo Effect:: Believe in your Doctor

Placebo Effect: A Cure in the Mind: Scientific American: "The latest research has shown that the placebo effect does not always arise from a conscious belief in a drug. Alternatively, it may grow out of subconscious associations between recovery and the experience of being treated, from the pinch of a shot to a doctor’s white coat. Such subliminal conditioning can control bodily processes, including immune responses and the release of hormones. Meanwhile researchers have decoded some of the biology of placebo responses, demonstrating that they stem from active processes in the brain."

As Dr. Elizabeth Black told me one day after I bragged about how good my doctor was,

If you have faith in your doctor, everything she tells you to do works.

So far she has cured asthma, allergies, cancer, back pain that has been a problem all my life, shoulder pain, and fragile skin.

Certainly I take all the pills, do all the exercises, and slather on the vitamin E creme, and since Dr. Chun and Kaiser know everything, everything works. Probably other things I have forgotten as well. But thank you I will continue to believe in my doctor as the only thing in my life that I believe in. If some day I need a miracle cure my prayer will be an email to my doctor. It will work.

Why we make music

Welcome Address, by Karl Paulnack: "From these two experiences, I have come to understand that music is not part of “arts and entertainment” as the newspaper section would have us believe. It’s not a luxury, a lavish thing that we fund from leftovers of our budgets, not a plaything or an amusement or a pass time. Music is a basic need of human survival. Music is one of the ways we make sense of our lives, one of the ways in which we express feelings when we have no words, a way for us to understand things with our hearts when we cannot with our minds."

From a welcoming address to incoming students at the Boston Conservatory. Have a hankie handy, you will need it in a couple of sections of this address.

The Purpose Prize | Encore: Work That Matters in the Second Half of Life

The Purpose Prize | Encore: Work That Matters in the Second Half of Life: "The Purpose Prize
Pursue Your Passion,
Win $100,000

The Purpose Prize awards up to $100,000 to social innovators over 60 who are creating new ways to solve pressing social issues - from education to health care, poverty to global warming. Winners are finding purpose in an encore career and putting their experience to work for the greater good.

Know someone over 60 who is changing the world?
Nominate Now
Deadline: March 5, 2009"

J'C: Great idea, I wish I knew someone who had a shot. If you do use the link to enter them as beliefnet gets the credit for the referral

Poker Insight and investing

Poker Insight: "You can find a step-by-step tutorial on all this, free of charge, at www.wealtheffect.com/invest1.htm — start at the beginning and see how far you want to take it. If you learn enough to realize that you don't know enough, find an investment advisor who understands these concepts and has the long-term track record to prove it. There is a saying in the poker world that applies to the stock market: if you can't tell who the patsy is, you're the patsy."

The link is a decent quick introduction to playing the market. I haven't checked out the wealtheffect.

In Defense of the Recession Blame Game - TIME

In Defense of the Recession Blame Game - TIME: "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord, except that right now everyone wants a little piece of it. The mob has been chanting for months, ever since former Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson arrived in late September on Capitol Hill to warn of disaster, pass around his three-page plan and demand $700 billion to fix the problem."

Or from their chemicals on dead trees edition:

The venting of spleen is not a science--it is a joy.

Go on line and vote for your favorites.

They are all there Mozilo, Graham, Paulson, Fuld, and of course Madoffwiththesmartmoney.

I had a little trouble with Madoff. How bad is it to screw people who should know better and agreed to the screwing. As I am well known to say victimless crimes are not crimes, where do I stand on this? I have little sympathy for victims of Ponzi schemes, and pyramid scams. They all think they will get out on time. But as you will see in the next post. Look for the patsy.

Am I SAVED?

Is there a god...? - Beliefnet Forums:.

When asked about God I don't worry about existence issues, "I will worry about worthiness issues and generally be brutal about it. I especially like

Have you accepted JESUS CHRIST as YOUR SAVIOR!?

It gives me free reign to tee off on all of Paul, the hijacking of Jesus' good name, the bigotry and just plain inhumanity of God for sending all but holy assholes to Hell. The possibilities are endless but it is hard to keep them on the front porch that long. I usually invite them in for coffee so they can't get away easily."

Executive dole pay plan

Tom Toles sure has his finger on this one. Don't miss the tag in the lower right.


During the transition period The Obama Team posted a "question box." Ask and respond to questions from ordinary people, that is those that donated less than $200 to the campaign (I think) One of the most heavily approved questions was the Ben and Jerry solution to the bail outs. As many of you know Ben and Jerry for a long time had a pay plan that limited executive pay to 17 times the lowest paid employee. At half a $mill that makes lowest paid $30,000. I don't think so!

But he is trying!

Skepticblog » Sympathy for the Devil

Skepticblog » Sympathy for the Devil:

"The problem he would have in admitting that his religion was wrong on homosexuality is that his whole religion is based on Paul’s misanthropy and hatred of all things sexual. If everything you do as a human, especially those things you do with your genitals is a sin, you can then internalize the need for a Savior. And Guess what? Paul created one for you: Christ the Son of God, the result of God raping a woman committed to another man, who was tortured, died for a few days and miraculously went to Heaven to save all from the wrath of this dysfunctional God who hates all human sexuality."

My comment. Nothing to add.

Skepticblog » Sympathy for the Devil

Skepticblog » Sympathy for the Devil: "In the film [Pelosi's Trials of Ted Haggard] you can hear the guilt in Ted Haggard’s voice and see the self-loathing in his face. Ted Haggard is a broken man, broken not by his biology but by his religion. You cannot “fix” people’s biology, but you can change their religion, and it’s time for Ted Haggard to give up on his religion — and perhaps religion altogether.

J'C: I can't count the number of people who have been "Broken by their Religion" Catholics who enjoy sex and want to control the number of children that result. Evangelicals who cannot hate. Christians and Jews who really read the bible and have to choose between God and self respect.

I respect believers, their religion helps them get through their day and do the things they need to. But I do not respect most religions, especially those that compel rejecting or modifying intrinsic human instincts like sex and pair bonding.

Atheism And Organ Donation

Atheism And Organ Donation - Beliefnet Forums:

"I am a blood donor, and at every opportunity I tell the story of a bicyclist hit by a motorcyclist with spikes on his leathers. My first action on arriving at the hospital was show my donor card and tell the doctors that they could use as many of my 200+ pints as needed to help. I am also a registered marrow donor. I haven't needed to endure the donation process yet, but a good friend, as well as a celebrity who also is a friend, are alive and well because of marrow donations. I take great pleasure in the fact that I was on stage with Mary Travers albeit hidden in the chorus, at a recent concert 3.5 years after her marrow transplant.

You are not the first I have told these stories to. Please think about these people and schedule a blood donation today! While you are there ask about marrow donation."

J'C: In response to an exhortation to register as an organ donor. I think the OP would be better off taking his campaign to the religious boards, hesh is preaching to the choir on the atheism boards, but at least hesh is preaching.

Religion and atheism

Atheism vs Anti-religious :

"But for my friends that basically keep their religion inside their church, I have no interest at all in dissuading them from their beliefs no matter how ridiculous the beliefs seem to me. Their beliefs obviously help them in some way to be the good people that I find them to be. And by the way none of them are 'lower orders.' There is no such thing in my thinking. Many of them discuss atheism and their religion with me because they know I respect their beliefs and have no intention of belittling them or suggesting that their religion is irrational. A very good friend of mine told me that (the Catholic) God even listens to the prayers of atheists, so if he asks me to pray for him I do. It actually saves me the time of figuring out a nice way of telling him what he needs to know."

I really don't understand the fundie atheists and the anti-God atheists like The Fearsome Four who are anti-God and anti-religion. They pick the worst examples of religious idiocy and try to tar all religion with it. Perhaps awareness raising is a benefit that balances the ossification of belief that the dispute causes. But maybe ossifying a monolith is not changing anything.

So that all children can fly

uuworld.org : watching the evidence change: "In the hours and days after November 4, a saying made its way across the Internet that speaks cogently to the stream of history in which we now stand:

Rosa sat so that Martin could walk. Martin walked so that Obama could run. Obama ran so that our children can fly.”

J'C: Some of the world has matured to where those identifiers of "other" are obsolete:
Negro
Woman
Infidel
Homosexual

We are not quite to the Cosmopolitan World yet where the only thing that counts is "What you can do for your Country" or "planet" these days. But that day is approaching. Those parts of the world where these identifiers are still operable will find it increasingly hard to compete in the Cosmopolitan World. The reaction will unfortunately be violent, and it will be interesting to see how we the cosmopolitans will handle the violence. We obviously have the hoof and mouth solution, tried already in Iraq. I wonder if there is any other. It may be that quarantine will work as those dysfunctional societies destroy themselves, and they will. It will be hard to stand by and watch, but is there any other choice? Is the nuclear hoof and mouth solution kinder? The "neutron" bomb to reduce fallout?
Is there an answer? The question is getting unavoidable.

Jennifer Lin improvs piano magic | Video on TED.com

Jennifer Lin improvs piano magic | Video on TED.com

An incredible pianist improvises on 5 random notes.

Work in progress I am still trying to learn how to embed the video.

Doonesbury on ringtones.

Gary Trudeau has been doing a bit on Jimmy Thudpucker riding the wave of pop ringtones. Today's is That Was The Year that was in four panels.

Text of President Barack Obama's inaugural address - Yahoo! News

Text of President Barack Obama's inaugural address - Yahoo! News:

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus — and non-believers. We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth; and because we have tasted the bitter swill of civil war and segregation, and emerged from that dark chapter stronger and more united, we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; that as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself; and that America must play its role in ushering in a new era of peace.

"Emphasis added.

J'C: Unbelievable! --and non-believers!!! Atheists, pagans, pantheists, Buddhists, All those people who can think for themselves without some little tinhorn in a fancy dress in an overdecorated balcony telling them what they are supposed to think. Perhaps some of them can think of ways to make stem cells do what God cannot do, that is cure amputees. Others might be able to eliminate our dependence on fossil fuels, without worrying about whose oil fields don't pay anymore and whose coal plants no longer pollute the air we breathe. Can we make solar power cheap enough to power a hydrogen economy? We have the cars already, all we need is H2 fueling stations, and H2 cheap enough to compete with Gas. Lest the intelligent Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus get on my case, there are probably a majority of you who will participate as well now that your Wingnuts are under control, and their "Faith Based Government" is not driving everything including intelligent thought underground.

My few bucks to the campaign has just paid itself back a thousandfold. He has the mandate, and I suspect he will find the courage to make the politically difficult moves to make it all happen. For the first time in 8 years, I will say I am once again proud to be an American.

Pascal’s Wager - fler

Beliefnet Discussions - Beliefnet.com: "fler0002
1/15/2004 11:15 PM

And we also discover that only those who believed in God and gave their lives to Him will enter into heaven and those who didn't will go to the torment of hell... what then??

What is it that you find to love in a deity that threatens you with eternal torment if you make one wrong decision?

Does a perfect deity sound like one who feels that it is just to torment you forever because of a choice you made based on the limited knowledge, and some erroneous knowledge, that you had when you made the choice?

Or does it sound like a shell game designed to play upon your fears in order to persuade you to believe?

Does it sound like a policy that benefits the church more than it benefits the believer?

Does it sound like a plan to intimidate the uncertain by depicting their 'loving' deity as one that is bigger, stronger, and incomparably more vicious?

Does it sound like a plan that not only creates fears of what happens after death, but also creates in humanity fears of each other? Fears of any tolerance for anything other than what is sanctified by the church. Fears that turn into hatreds. Fears that turn into witch hunts. Fears that turn into jihads, crusades, and terrorism. Fears that turn into sexual abuse.

You are welcome to indulge yourself in all those fears. I for one have chosen to use reason to dispell them. I don't have to live with those fears, and consider Pascal to be a coward."

J'C: This dismissal of Pascal is by far the best I have seen. Note the date. I have been meaning to post it for a while.

Pascal’s Wager

Wandering in the Wilderness » A Great Alternative to Pascal’s Wager : "Pascal got it wrong because if you live your life based on the idea that the Sky Gnome exists then you miss out on actually living your life. If you believe because you fear retribution when your end comes you will find yourself regretting all the things that you did not do because you lived your life in the expectation that there was a judgement and that the judgement would be based on a contradictory 2000 year old cobbled together manuscript of unknown pedigree. For those that truly believe then they reach the end of a life that was not fully lived because of the expectation that there was ’something grander’ awaiting them as a reward for not having lived their lives to the fullest.

I propose that we all start praying for the Rapture - it will decrease the number of self righteous bigoted nutjobs on the planet and since we already know what the Anti-Christ is up to we exercise our free will and give him a talk show and a product line on HSN and then go on with our lives freed from the shackles of religion.

J'C: The second best reason to ignore Pascal's Wager. See next post for fler's famous comment. I will pray for the Rapture, as my friend says God listens to Atheists, maybe it will work.

Pharyngula: Chemical replicators

Pharyngula: Chemical replicators: "We're one step closer to self-sustaining chemical replicators, similar to what would have existed a few billion years ago, before true cells evolved. Lincoln and Joyce have created a couple of relatively simple molecules that assemble themselves from even simpler precursors in a test"

J'C: A really cool experiment that shows how early RNA type chemical replicators may have come about. I loved their comment on why not now?

The world around us is swarming with the ravenous, finely-honed products of billions of years of evolution, creatures like bacteria, that would readily swoop down on any accumulation of nucleotides and consume them before these kinds of reactions could even start.

OK, God exists. Now what?

OK, God exists. Now what? - Beliefnet Forums:

Drange emphasizes that any stance on 'Does God exist?' is made with respect to a particular concept of what one claims to consider 'God' to represent

The problem with this stance is that it focuses on the external characteristics of God rather than God.

If you talk about a home you talk about where a family of any size lives, the base from which they go out to do their thing in the rest of the world. What it is made of, how big it is, how many bathrooms, if any, it has are all useful in making inferences about those calling the place home, but are independent of the concept of whether homes exist....

If God is the referent for worship and reverence of a group of people of any size, questions of supernatural vs, natural, creator vs. created, real existence vs. imaginary existence, all become irrelevant. One can focus on important questions. Is God functional for believers? Is God functional for non-believers? Is God functional for the society in which it exists? Is God functional for the cosmopolitan world in which some of us live?

These are not trivial questions. One must examine the God,or the inference of God by studying the beliefs of the group to see if the particular God is acceptable....

J'C: This is where I think Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Dennett, et all are strategically in error. Only Dawkins even alludes to the functionality of God beliefs, and then uses only horrible examples of dysfunctionality to make his point. A believer in God is not going to be convinced God does not exist because the mythical accretions that have adhered over the ages are ridiculous. They already know that, but the accretions are helpful in defining the group and maintaining group unity. A believer may know that God is not a supernatural omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent alpha humanoid, these things cannot exist in a single entity. But believing anyway creates the sense of awe and reverence necessary for ceding some measure of control over ones life to God.

For some "Letting go and let God." is a necessary part of living a relatively meaningless life as an assembly line robot, barfly and couch potato. God works for them, they at least show up for work each day, and once a week God may send them to Habitat for Humanity or a soup kitchen to pay their social dues to their community.

Even a person who is none of the above may find God belief useful in eliminating questions of meaning and purpose from one's life and freeing them to pursue their muse, whatever that may be. Many of my friends never think about being alive and having to die. God takes care of all of that. They can build their Ponzi scheme, write their symphony, or build the computing cloud without a thought of why. In many ways this might be comforting. It would drive me nuts.

Atheists in Church.

Agnostics - Beliefnet Forums:

"I have attended churches (other than UU) all my life as an atheist. Usually with a friend who was a member of the Faith and knew of my atheism. I never pretended belief, and treated hymns and prayers as myths. Maybe as something to analyze for value, but myth nevertheless.

A Catholic friend of mine told me once that God even listens to the prayers of atheists, so when he asks me to pray for him I do so. I don't expect much, but he does, and maybe it will work for him. My cost? zero. His benefit? At the very least a warm feeling of concern by his friend. I am still looking for the downside.

I think if you scratch the surface beliefs of some of the members of many Christian congregations you would find that some will be quite atheistic. They are attending for the goals of promoting social and economic justice and genuine peace, and probably for social networking as well.

I got over the hypocrisy of pretending God belief a long time ago, in fact I would go so far as suspending disbelief in appropriate situations. What did I have to lose? Atheism? It never happened, but if it did, so what. Lots of people seem to live happily as theists."

Is atheism a BS?

Ignosticism - Beliefnet Forums:

I say there are no gods, but not all Atheists have the guts to come right out and say it.

Not the guts but the end product of the gut the BS.

And yes, the assertion that there are no gods is a Belief System, based on the rejection of all evidence to the contrary that does not meet the standards of the BS of materialism and antisupernaturalism. There is plenty of evidence of God belief, but the materialist BS asserts that God belief does not indicate the existence of the referent God because the God would be immaterial.

Extending the concept of atheism to aBSism I am an aBSist with respect to this BS as well as religious BS."

J'C: One of the major reasons I don't make a common cause with most of the noisy atheists out there, although I call myself an atheist, is that they battle all Gods instead of choosing the dysfunctional Abrahamic God particularly when unleavened with the Synoptic Gospel myths of Jesus. I have no problem admitting the existence of any God providing the God has a currently active set of believers to maintain the immaterial entity they call God. But the unleavened Abrahamic God has the petulance of a small child, the misogyny of most gods, and morals of a street bully. A thoroughly unpleasant entity, who should not be denied but opposed.

I don't worship any God, and no God has any influence on my life except what I choose to learn from believers, hence, atheism. But claiming God does not exist is an extremely misguided strategy.

How Science Works.

Do White Blood Cells Make Cancer Deadly?: Scientific American: "The issue contained a letter from three Czech doctors asking whether the fusion of tumor cells and white blood cells could cause cancers to spread, or metastasize. At the time, Pawelek was also reading a book by evolutionary biologist Lynn Margulis, who pioneered the idea that life on earth was revolutionized by ancient cells engulfing one another and fusing together, forming hybrids that had better chances at survival. “I was really excited by the connection,” he recalls. “Since there was a precedent for hybridization in evolution, why not in cancer?”"

J'C: The article goes on to describe Pawelek's 15 year investigation of this hypothesis and starting with mice and finally moving on to human studies. It looks like he is on the verge of some important information on the mechanism of metastasis.

Daring Rescue of Humpback Off Farallones, SF Chronicle, 12/14/05 | Coral Reef Alliance

Daring Rescue of Humpback Off Farallones, SF Chronicle, 12/14/05 | Coral Reef Alliance: "Daring Rescue of Humpback Off Farallones, SF Chronicle, 12/14/05
By Peter Fimrite
A humpback whale freed by divers from a tangle of crab trap lines near the Farallon Islands nudged its rescuers and flapped around in what marine experts said was a rare and remarkable encounter.

'It felt to me like it was thanking us, knowing that it was free and that we had helped it,' James Moskito, one of the rescue divers, said Tuesday. 'It stopped about a foot away from me, pushed me around a little bit and had some fun.'

Sunday's daring rescue was the first successful attempt on the West Coast to free an entangled humpback, said Shelbi Stoudt, stranding manager for the Marine Mammal Center in Marin County.

The 45- to 50-foot female humpback, estimated to weigh 50 tons, was on the humpbacks' usual migratory route between the Northern California coast and Baja California when it became entangled in the nylon ropes that link crab pots."

J'C: And they say that whales are not sapient. She sure knew what those odd fish in the plastic flippers were doing for her. And she knew who freed her from her fatal trap.

Dolphins rescue humans caught in rip-tides, it is high time we returned the favor for those intelligent marine cousins.

The history of religion- Readers Digest version

The Bright Line... - Beliefnet Forums:

BUT the question is far deeper, that is how was it that from Gods first creatures, re...Adam and Eve came the non knowledge of God, that has come to become clinically known as Atheism?

As I remember the myth, Adam and Eve came to the non knowledge of God by eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They were thereby made independent of God and Herm 612 petty and picayune rules and could hold their heads high in their humanity and live according to the best interests of themselves, their family and their society based on that knowledge of good and evil from the fruit. Like most humans they screwed up occasionally, but they must have learned from their mistakes and were better people thereafter.

Apparently God got so disgusted with them that he adopted another tribe and made them toe the line of the 612 petty and picayune rules. Since no one could comply with them all it set the stage for Paul and his Christ to save everybody and since everybody broke one of the 612 rules he could make them all believe that they were sinners in need of salvation.

I guess the atheists just made a detour around the Israelis and therefore the Christians and just built on the knowledge of good and evil that Adam and Eve gave to their descendants. "

J'C: From an otherwise forgettable thread comes a weird comment that stimulated a smart-ass reply which then grew into an interesting myth. Hey if J can write fun myths why can't I. Now if only I can figure out how to lobby the canonizers...

Celebration: Charlie, Dad, Athlete, and so much else.

In celebration of the anniversary of his birth
January 5,1901


My Father's Shirt



I put on your blue flannel shirt,
The old one you loved, the color of sky,
Thin in the elbows and frayed at the neck,
That I saved from the throwaway pile
After you died and we went through your things.

I put on your soft flannel shirt,
The one that matched your blue eyes,
The gentle eyes that looked upon me
Full and tender with deep quiet love
That protected and taught me to trust.

I put on your warm flannel shirt
The one that matched your clear eyes
That stared up bright empty
When they wheeled in your cart
And I saw you for one final time.

I put on your blue flannel shirt
And feel the frayed softness surround me,
I see the blue eyes that through life and beyond
Shine with acceptance and warm tender care,

Loving me, holding me, keeping the vigil,
Embracing my spirit, and keeping me warm.

Bonnie Black

C'J: And the wonder is
I have the other one.

Spirituality vs. God

Society Without God :

"Spirituality is not belief in God. Spirituality is not belief in gods. Spirituality is not belief in the supernatural. Buddhism is a god free and largely supernatural free spiritual culture.

Spirituality is the wonder and joy of being alive and trying to make sense out of the world we live in. It is true that promoters of God or gods can hijack this wonder and joy and attribute it to God or gods, and create the impression that spirituality is identical with a supernatural God. But those of us who celebrate our spirituality without God, who can find joy and wonder in an electron micrograph or a fractal algorithm or an APOD image or thousands of everyday wonders presented to those alive enough to notice, need no supernatural omnipotent alpha humanoid for spiritual experiences. The natural world is more than adequate."

Are We Gods?

Are We Gods? :

"Yeah, and I must be a god because when I pray I know that I'm talking to myself."

The quote of the week from beliefnet. Thanks "Namchuck"

Anselm's Ontological Argument

Anselm's Ontological Argument :

"My problem with Anselm's argument is that it starts with a belief.

... we believe that thou art a being than which nothing greater can be conceived.

If the fool is a believer, then Anselm works. Within the belief space God must exist. Where I am different from the fool is that I don't believe.

I don't believe in God.

I don't believe in great beings that have not earned that designation by the accolades of contemporary or near contemporary historians and story tellers and who clearly existed as a real, living, human being. I don't even believe all the stories about great beings. It is not unusual for admirers of great beings to pad the resume, so to speak. These unbelievable stories do not impugn the credibility of the existence of the great being in fact they add to it. If starry eyed groupies didn't lie about their hero maybe hesh wasn't so great after all.

I don't believe in anything 'than which nothing greater can be conceived.' A random Hubble deep field image shows things greater than anything that can be conceived."

Jesus vs. Christians

Is Life Pointless? : "Please note that Jesus was a man. He was made a God by John and Paul whose Jesus Christ kept nothing of the message of kindness, love, charity and forgiveness. I think you are right that rational Americans prefer Jesus, too bad that none of them are Christian."

Mistbows and wonder

Is there really such a thing...? - Beliefnet Forums: "But even with these loose definitions of God I am an atheist. I get my spiritual, moral, and meaning reinforcement from my society and the world I enjoy living in. If I spend a day hiking the mist trail to Nevada Falls enjoying the play of the sun in the mist, I am not thanking a creator for the experience I am celebrating the fact that I can still do that. Understanding the physics of the mistbows


in no way diminishes the wonder and enjoyment of the experience."

Is a story a message?

Is Heinlein the atheist's philosopher? - : "If the message in art or storytelling seems more important than the story or the art the package will fail. However, a story without a message is destined to the dustbin of pulp fiction, read once and discarded without a thought. It is no wonder that the function of pulp fiction, that is mindless escape from the real world has been taken over by Video and UTube. Before you beat me with that dolly again, there are Videos with important messages behind the storyboard, and maybe there is even an important UTube out there, but you can bet it is entertaining as well as meaningful. The very few that are willing to think about the meaning behind the entertainment will keep it circulating in blogspace or the next big thing for people who can and do think."

Literature or Philosophy?

Is Heinlein the atheist's philosopher? : "One of the best and most popular courses in my brief stint as a philosophy major was a course entitled 'Philosophy in Literature.' The premise was that perhaps Shakespeare, Aquinas, Homer, Milton, Sartre, and Joyce were telling us more about the philosophy of their time than the academics, either historians or philosophers. One of the reasons I quit Philosophy as a major was the isolation from real life of the philosophers I was studying. I found myself going to the literature and music of the time to find out what was really going on. If you think about it, a novelist or other artist that wants to survive on herm art had better have a pretty good handle on the prevailing philosophy of the time. Not incidentally it is much more interesting studying philosophy in the context of a rollicking good story, than plowing through paragraph long sentences of meaningless words."

J'C: I find it much the same in music. The academics were pushing the cerebral envelope with studies of atonality, noise and silence, while the tenor of the times was being expressed in the movie scores and advert music. I find it amusing that modern "Classical" music is almost entirely movie scores. Of course Tchaikovsky only wrote popular music of his time also.

Sir Alex and his Squire

Facebook | Videos Posted by Elizabeth Black: Sir Alex and his Squire

Grandson Alex with his new toy Thanks to Greg Stone and Jack Van Breen who helped get the right bass within the budget.

On Blank Books

Is Life Pointless?: "

I pick up this book of blank pages, and I say 'There's no story here.'

I think I will pick up a book of blank pages and see if I can write a better story that works for me. I just received an incredible gift from my sister, a small blank book with a poem on every page. Each page made many points of meaning for me and our friends and relatives. I will spend more time on that 'blank' book than on any book of ancient myths that are no longer even relevant to living."