Moral Evil

....Athiest, never dear... - Beliefnet

You went a few words too far. Slavery was abolished because it was a moral evil. Moral evil. Period. Full stop. End of sentence. A very few religious people saw through the biblical blessings justifying slavery and recognized it for the moral evil it was. It never was or could be considered a sin under any biblical or Christian definition of sin.

Sin is a Christian concept involving a human relationship to God. It has nothing to do with human relationships with each other which are covered by the concept of morality not sin. Any person who does not accept Paul's rants about sin cannot sin. According to Paul in Romans 1:18-23 humans although they knew God they glorified Him not as God. ...and for this cause God gave them up to vile afflictions, that is made them sin. If they knew not God they could not sin. They could be immoral, as immorality is a hateful act or even a hateful statement against another human. Whether it is sin or not makes no difference.

May 7, 2011 -- 2:24PM, wrote:

remember too it was the Church first in England through the leadership of Wilberforce that abolished Slavery there, then here in America here too through the spark ignited by Harriet Beecher Stowe in Uncle Toms Cabin. Slavery was abolished because it was a moral evil it was saw for what it was --------> Sin

Atheism, among those who know is a sinful condition.
Leight

Critiquing religion

Critiquing religion - Christopher Hitchens - Beliefnet

The major problem with Hitchins is that like many polemicists it is too easy for the target fundies to wiggle free from the diatribe by simply nodding and saying yeah, all the rest of us are going to Hell, but if you listen to those of us who have the truth you can beat the rap. You don't have to do anything but accept Christ as Savior, and of course admit that you are no better than the rest of us sinners who are saved by Christ. In some sects you have to pretend to agree with that little vuvuzela in the fancy dress in the over decorated balcony or you might get thrown out. The best of all worlds. You are still saved, and you don't have to go to church. Of course they will tell you you are not saved, but since you have met Christ and/or God you know the TRUTH.™

I think this out is much more common than admitted by the fundies. And of course by the "Progressive Christians." So in effect is easy for almost any Christian to dismiss the polemic.

I find it much more interesting to attack the irresponsibility of nailing sin on the cross instead of taking responsibility for one's actions. In other words attack the concept of sin as bullshit and a cop out. When you make shit happen you have to clean it up. There isn't much wiggle room in that one. You can always throw the free will thing at them. Yeah you are a sinner, but God gave you the ability to triumph over that sin. (Gen 4:7 if you need the scripture) Why with Hell staring you in the face are you not doing so?

Paul's sins

Sex and spirituality. - Beliefnet:

"I do blame Paul. He needed a bunch of sins that people could adopt to consider themselves sinners so that they would need his savior. In Romans 1 he really covers the waterfront, and in Corinthians he picks up normal sex as a sin. You say you are not a sinner? Do you have sex of any kind? Gotcha! The Romans sins are easier to deny, or point at others as examples, but 'God knows' so all need salvation. This was the genius of Paul. Call it perverted genius if you will, but every Christian can find a sin for hermself in Paul. And for everybody else so hesh doesn't feel lonely."

Christianity and The Empty Tomb

Why Was The Tomb Empty? - Beliefnet :

I think Paul's brilliance in making everything people do sinful including sex and judgement is what gave his sect a leg up on all the rest. The peroration in Romans 1 continuing on through the first lines of Romans 2 insured that everyone needed a savior. Paul touched all the bases there, and the cherry on the top was the better to marry than burn. It is no wonder that Christians think sin is pervasive. One can't do anything that isn't sinful. Then adding in the Original sin so that just breathing is sinful, made salvation an absolute necessity.

Just to set the record straighter for me. The only Christian cult was Paul's. The others were more or less Jesus cults maybe with a bit of savior God especially in John, but the synoptics celebrate the ministry of Jesus not his Godhood

As for the empty tomb, the best explanation I have heard is that the rich guy donated it only for the burial and maybe anticipating a need for it removed the body over the weekend. Or maybe he was part of the conspiracy, and since it was his tomb nobody asked any questions.

As for Jesus resurrecting and pushing the rock and leaving in the dark of the night, before anyone could check the three day prophesy, seems pretty goofy to me. It would have been much better theater to push the stone, and be sitting there and say 'Don't cry ladies, here I am again. Go see if you can find a few disciples that aren't hiding from the authorities and tell them to come and see for themselves.'"

Sin and Shadow

Owning Your Own Shadow - Beliefnet

It's not a belief system. It operates with people who don't even know the shadow exists. How can that be a belief system.
stardustpilgrim

"If it operates with people like me who do not have one, it is a belief system. I do not have a sinful nature nor a shadow. I have a very well developed sense of what natural tendencies I have to control to assume a beneficial role in my chosen society, but those natural tendencies are not dark, or bad, or evil, they are simply not useful in an intelligent cosmopolitan society.

One of the reasons I have found God dysfunctional is some of the natural tendencies encouraged by God are not useful in my society. Fear of strangers or people different from me is a natural tendency that at one time was quite useful. It is no longer so. As Oscar Hammerstein wrote in South Pacific

You've got to be taught before it's too late.
Before you are six or seven or eight.
To hate all the people your relatives hate.

You won't do it naturally, you may naturally fear strangers, but this fear is not bad or dark or shadowy, you have to be taught that the fear is hate which is bad, and dark and a shadow. But someone had to teach you."

The dark side legacy of Paul

Circumstantial evidence for God - Beliefnet

'Everything with substance casts a shadow. The ego stands to the shadow as light to shade. This is the quality that makes us human. Much as we would like to deny it, we are imperfect'.

MEETING THE SHADOW, The Hidden Power of the Dark Side of Human Nature; edited by Connie Zweig and Jeremiah Abrams
Wendyness

"I do not argue that perhaps most people believe in the dark side of humanity. I suspect this is a result of the prevailing Pauline concept of universal sinfulness. When you are taught from a young age that you are a miserable sinner and require salvation it is easy to internalize the concept of sin or a dark side. The trick it to understand Paul's theology, reject it rationally, and look around at the people you know. How many of them could you even identify what their dark side consisted of?"

For me this is the most devastating legacy of Paul's sales pitch. And why I find Romans 1 to be the most crippling book in the whole bible. It is a litany of all the human impulses that must be controlled to be sure, but are not inherent in all or even most. And yet one has this peroration that tries to rope everybody into the sinner category so Paul can later sell his savior. And guess what? If you give the church the child till he is 10 you will have a child with an internalized sinful nature with a dark side that he must find salvation for. He can reject the church, and even God. But the dark side remains. If only people could internalize "I am a good kid. God doesn't make junk." If only Paul had.

On sin and hatred.

The Atheist Test - Beliefnet Forums: "We are all sinners. Everyone of us."
Speak for your self, Christian, the rest of us are basically good people. Acts of unkindness are generally inadvertent, and yes, we repent and try to learn from them to be even better people, more empathetic, and compassionate toward the people important to our society. Ideally that would be everybody, but some Christians and Muslims make it hard to even come close to that ideal. It is hard not to return hatred with antipathy, but I try to return hatred with its opposite, indifference. Your hatred, like your God, means nothing to me, I refuse to accept its relevance to my life."