Atheists and Jesus - Discuss Atheism - Beliefnet Community

Atheists and Jesus - Beliefnet:

"Kermit the Frog, Jubal Hartshaw, Jesus, and God are well defined, consistently portrayed (at least locally in the case of God) constructed entities that are used for the purpose of entertainment and perhaps teaching. While it is useful to understand the background of the the creator of the entity it is not necessary at all to appreciate the message of the entity.

It is quite reasonable to discuss the social and moral views of the entity as depicted in the realization of that entity, without knowing anything at all about the creator. It is useful to suspend disbelief in the reality of the character to appreciate the entertainment/message but not necessary. One can appreciate the message of It isn't Easy Being Green even if one is well aware of the fact that what is being referred to is a green sock puppet. Of course the target audience is not adult curmudgeons who cannot get past the reality of a sock puppet, but small children for whom suspension of disbelief is as natural as breathing.

As an aside one of the reasons for the success of Sesame Street was that much of the entertainment/message was directed at the parents who were being lulled into not believing the sock puppets were real. It is no easier being a minority parent than it is to be a green sock puppet."

Fighting Two Fronts - Discuss Atheism - Beliefnet Community

Fighting Two Fronts - Beliefnet From a generally useless thread:

"For those for whom God is the awe-ful, controlling big daddy (always male) in the sky, they must fight every loss of power. If God looses control over creation, and in particular creation of man (human males) in His image, He loses control over everything: Morality, the prieshood, women and even men.

However, this is not by any stretch all theists. Frequently atheists spend entirely too much energy and ammunition (torches for straw men) on this God which you note correctly is increasingly irrelevant.

In general God is a centering/focusing point or entity which is a community building aid for the moral and social cohesion for a functioning society. I would suggest that a majority of theists in Europe and the 'Blue' USA are using God in a beneficial way for the larger society including atheists, and atheists should be careful in choosing the enemy. A blanket condemnation of all theists or even all Christians, may be alienating some powerful allies in the fight against fundamentalism. Many of the scientists eliminating the gaps for the creationist God to hide in are Christians, and quite devout in their God beliefs. It is just that the Male Creator is not the God they focus on. It is important to be aware of the difference. I find 'He' is the touchstone. Anyone referring to God as He can be presumed guilty. Those that are aware of the gender issues are our friends."

I find it very encouraging that many devout Christians are focusing on the direct connection with God advocated by Jesus. "Worship the Lord thy God with all thy heart...." in effect eliminating that little vuvuzela in the fancy dress in the overdecorated balcony unless hesh looses the hubris of speaking as God but is speaking for God as hesh understands God in herm society.

The Intellectual Poverty of Rationalism

Antitheism? - Beliefnet:

"If a rationalist is unable to suspend disbelief as claimed to enjoy a learning experience or even a rollicking good time at a movie, reading a worth while fiction, listening to an emotional piece of music, or attending a religious service, but must analyze every nuance for compliance with their understanding of reality, usually material, is missing a major portion of what I experience as being an intelligent human.

The wonder and joy of a rainbow does not need be parsed into light ray patterns and ignored as merely physics. Although doing so after enjoying the wonder of the moment does not diminish and may increase the wonder and joy. Understanding that a rainbow is created by and uniquely for oneself is 'not merely physics' the interaction of the non-rational portion of the mind is essential.

I suspend disbelief in God each time I sing a Mass or a prayer in order to appreciate the non-rational wonder and beauty of a transcendant being that watches over me even after I die. Sure when it is over, all that remains is the wonder and beauty, and I might add the appreciation of the faith of believers, although I do not participate in it. I finally came to grips with the finality of death by understand the power of the 'Et Expecto' by believing it for a while."

Conundrums

There Is No God - Beliefnet:

"There is no materialist conundrum. WE are not the ones having a problem with a god - we simply don't accept that one exists. THEISTS are the ones with the conundrum - how to convince (i.e., proselytize) others of the existence of something for which they have no inductive or deductive evidence?

They've figured it out to an extent - brainwash children before the age of reason with the creation mythology nonsense, and hope it sticks out of habit, or approach people who are emotionally fragile or medically fragile and are looking for any comfort, and hope it works with them over the long term.

But they are unable to deal with rational adults who don't need their particular night light, and it totally frightens them. As well it should. Because if rational, thinking people don't need their myth after exploring it in depth, maybe their myth isn't real at all, and maybe the theists should rethink things."

Thanks TolerantSis

Theodicy

There Is No God - Beliefnet:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

~Epicurus

Thanks Kwinters for this

Morality as Face Group

Please Critique My Idea Of God - Beliefnet:

"Managing my life for the good of my chosen society is more basic than a call by God on my conscience. Humans as highly intelligent and extremely social animals are genetically programmed to learn all they can about the customs and mores of their tribe or social group as defined prehistorically by those whose faces they encountered on a daily basis. There could be no thought of violating these customs and mores, as doing so would cause banishment and a solo human was a dead human. This is the basis of conscience, not some big daddy in the sky. As tribes got larger and the face groups dispersed, myth and lore took the place of customs and mores, and the shamans in charge of maintaining the myth and lore found that an imaginary superface as part of every group, inevitably in the image of the group was very useful to enforce the precepts of the myth and lore. Hence the evolution of your First Cause, traditionally referred to as God. As shamans and God became more powerful and manipulative many of the conscience functions and exceptions to them became the province of God. Do what God tells you to do began to override the do what is right of the conscience. Especially when God got to be Maitre d'Hotel of the afterlife, and doing what God tells you to do became the cumshaw.

The reason I feel the need to take control of my life is twofold. The first is as you note the conscience but in the original sense of internalized customs and mores of the face group. The world is too big to be a face group these days but if we choose carefully there are a group of people whose customs and mores we can internalize. That group will look a lot like our family and close friends even when extended to people we probably will never meet. My group consists of intelligent, well educated, self actualizing people who are capable of and interested in making changes to the relevant society of intelligent, well educated, self actualizing people. Most of us have found God and gods of any form limiting and dysfunctional to our society.

One of the results is the second reason for ignoring God, that is that the only life that counts is the one that begins with birth and ends with death. It is the only one we can be sure of, and Pascal's wager fails on the plethora of possible God bets each with different rules for living. So we live as if the only important contribution we can make is by living according to the best interests of our chosen society. The agnostics among us suggest that if God is the Maitre d' in the afterlife that is all Hesh would care about anyway."

Good and Evil

Epicurus? - Beliefnet:

A personal view of good and evil is "Perhaps an Epicurean POV, or a caricature of a theist's view of atheism. Or both.

It has no basis in reality. Good and evil are determined by the effects of the action on the society of the person. The effect on the yenta. If she shakes her finger it is evil. If she perchance smiles it is good. We all have yentas in our lives. It usually starts with mom and ripples out from there to the yenta on her stoop. Some people replace the yenta with God but God usually devolves into that little vuvuzela in the fancy dress in the overdecorated balcony. If hesh blows the vuvuzela better not do it again. Hesh never smiles."

The Mind?

Where Is The Mind? - Beliefnet :

"Lets be honest here. In Christian myth, human minds created God, in order to create and sustain their little universe. Y'know the circle of the earth with the canopy of the heavens and a pile of dirt to turn into a human in the image of the minds that created God."

Good and Evil

Epicurus? - Beliefnet:

"Human social structures originally tribes and later villages and parishes decided definitively what was good and what was evil. Basically what was good was what created trust and cooperation within the tribe and what was evil was that which weakened the tribe by causing divisiveness and intra-tribal strife. Shamans quickly discovered that using God as a super cop not only gave them power as the interpreter for the super cop, but allowed them to add control rules to the natural good and evil recognized intuitively by the tribe.

As societies got larger the God interpreted good and evil was no longer effective as inter-tribal warfare was the norm for God, and the society needed to control this with secular laws and punishments for transgressions in this life not the next.

Good and evil were still defined by what created trust and cooperation and evil was still that which created divisiveness and strife. One important advancement in larger societies was recognizing that God inspired intra-tribal strife was an important evil and must be controlled."

Tell Me of the God You Don't Believe In.

When You Say "God"... - Beliefnet:

"In the general sense, anything that is greater than, and superior to, an individual that an individual can commune with is not useful for me. I do not say it doesn't exist for a believer but I suspect it is an emergent property of a human mind after years of conditioning or, as the religious say, indoctrination.

I have yet to encounter an emergent God that I would wish to commune with, although there are many that I can learn from. I learn from the myths, stories, beliefs, rituals, and the related liturgy relating to them. Usually what not to do, and what is immoral that the gods try to justify: Genocide, misogyny, sexual sin, even misanthropy for at least one common God."

The concept of sexual sin is probably the most prevalent immorality in many religions. There is always something, usually nearly everything, that one can do with sexual parts that is sinful. These activities are all natural reward mechanisms for creating and preserving the pair bond. Shamans observe that pair bonding interferes with God bonding. So anything that improves the pair bond must be sinful. A properly pair bonded couple turns inward to the relationship first, and to the family and extended face group that they can effect and which effects them. Generally this extended face group will exclude God as they can never hope to be face to face with God.

Rejecting God?

Reasoned Ignorance? - Beliefnet: "As long as you admit that the premise that we are all children of God is a belief system and not a fact, then the discussion can proceed reasonably. You may even believe that I am a child of God, it is no problem. But I do not reject that position, I reasonably find that it is not true, in large part because I have no connection at all with the supposed parent. That in turn is not rejection, but a reasonable choice that the God in question is not a reasonable choice for a parent or any other kind of mentor. I have studied the Biblical God among others and other belief systems, both as a child and an adult and found none worthy of belief. In order for God to be useful Hesh must provide some definable benefits. Show me the benefits of belief and I might believe.

The benefit of being a bored zombie in heaven, or a tormented zombie in hell does not hold much attraction for me. So we can put aside the afterlife.

That leaves this life. I have grown beyond the playground taunt of 'My dad (God) can beat up on your dad.' It does nothing to help me live with the eclectic experiences of the intelligent and thoughtful people that have become my society of choice. Some of them are in fact children of God, this does not bother me, nor does it bother them that I am not.

- Sent using Google Toolbar"

Divine Art?

We Thirst - Beliefnet:
From an otherwise forgettable thread.

"I would say the Pieta is an incredibly beautiful and emotionally powerful work. I first saw it as a young dogmatic atheist and was moved by the universal humanity of a mother grieving for a dead child. I saw it again as one better educated in Christian theology and creed, and saw not only the humanity of the mother grieving for the divine sacrifice, but also, more than a little resentment, I carried and nurtured your child for this?

I don't know how much of what I saw was put there by Michelangelo, and how much was put there by me. But in studying art, I do not assume divine inspiration, even if the artist is doing a professionally excellent job for a religious client. Editorial comments which are masked by the believers superficial interpretation, may nonetheless be in the art for those who wish to see. Note that even bad art is not really looked at if it tells a religious story. See the stations of the Cross in any Catholic Church."

I have been thinking a lot about what the composer/artist is putting into the music/art commissioned by the church. Of course the believer will take it with a large dollop of faith and not really think much about it. Also some composers Messiaen is a prime example put their art in the service of God. But many of the others I wonder about. One believer claimed Mozart was divinely inspired. I wonder about the dueling sopranos in the Grand Mass. They seem to be a bit much, and the Ave Verum Corpus in a Major key, and when Christ is pierced shift to another Major key?? An absolutely beautiful piece of music, but I am sure Mozart understood the text, and was at the very least indulging in a bit of irony in his setting.

The Existence of God

What is an atheist? - Discuss Atheism - Beliefnet Community

"At the risk of being thrown out of the atheist club by some theists I don't deny the existence of God.

I am convinced that some theists, influenced by their tradition are able to create God by their prayers and other actions usually in their churches. The fact that God is created by people, in their own image no less, and has existence only in their living minds does not mean that God is not real. At least for them. You might convince them that they are wasting time, money and emotional energy on this God.  But you have about the same chance of convincing them it does not exist as you have of convincing a small child that herm imaginary friend does not exist.

A reason a child outgrows an imaginary friend is that nobody else has the same friend unless they go to Sunday School. There they find everybody has an imaginary friend as well that will befriend them."

The creation of God, which a theist will never admit to, is a speculative process certainly.  In the traditional churches especially the Catholic the ritual and the liturgy interpreted by the congregation and local priests, but based on the long tradition preceding them will create the God that they all feel is with them in the church.  God will be unique to each parish although there will be some commonality with most similar traditions.

On even days I think that the creation is a collective consciousness process in which all "tune into" the consciousness of all. I call this the chamber music model.  Where all are hearing the same music in their minds and simply playing it together.  Probably one person usually the priest or first violin is the actual creator, but all will influence the collective result.  This might be thought of as the mental wiki model where one lays out the characteristics of God and others add their notes, comments, and emphasis.  The basics come from the tradition that all are familiar with, the score in the music analogy, and build their unique God from there. 

On odd days I think the Priest creates God which the parishioners tap into.  I call this the maestro model where the maestro interpreting the score creates the music that all are listening to with their consciousness.  There may be some feedback from the parishioners, but the priest is in charge and any changes are made at herm discretion .  I am confident that the larger churches work on this model.

In either case the tradition is a guide, not a straight jacket, as are the directives from the denomination.  

Absolute good

Valid Criticism or Projection? - Discuss Atheism - Beliefnet Community

The absolute standard for "good" is that which facilitates social living for all people. Which definitely excludes God. By any definition God facilitates only for believers, and frequently only for some of them.

On God

Valid Criticism or Projection? - Beliefnet

Whether it is the idea of Deity, Deity itself, The Whichness of the Why, The Woo-Woo Wishiness, or the supernatural omnipotent alpha humanoid, or whether it is defined or undefinable. It makes no difference. Whatever it is it is worthless to anyone except the believer. The believer may think it is the be all, or the ultimate ground of being, that which is greater than all things, or simply God. Believers are welcome to it. God bless them. They need it.

Seeking God

Standards of evidence - Beliefnet
Finding God has nothing to do with choosing to seek or reject God. It has to do with first and foremost to do with whether there is a God worth seeking. Some people through training and character are willing and able to seek and usually find whatever God a majority of their respected friends suggest is worthy of finding. Others again through training and character tend to examine the God a respected friend or group of friends is suggesting, that is, for example reading the entire Bible, to find out what Jewish and Christian friends recommend as a God worth finding. This is always a disaster. Even the Christians who really read the bible have trouble with their faith.

If you think you know of a God that you think is worth my trouble to seek, give me some data to look at and I will think it over. Warning: I have studied the Mass. the Requiem, and most of the Christian Prayers in depth and read several versions of the Bible including the major Catholic and Protestant Bibles in traditional and modern language versions and while I have learned many valuable things in the process I still haven't figured out a reason to seek God.

I am an atheist Jesuist. But Jesus makes a lousy God, and the one he apparently believed in has been thoroughly evaluated and is not worth seeking.

Tell all the Truth but tell it slant

"Tell all the Truth but tell it slant" - Beliefnet

This is why I think people like the one I quoted like proselytizing, but remember I am speaking in general about people who proselytize.

It takes no courage to come here and attack atheists. All it takes is an arrogance that is sadly unearned. Proselytizing for your evangelical God is not an act of love for God. It is not even an act of love for your fellow man. It is an act of self love. It is the sin of pride. That puffed up feeling of thinking you are the voice of God. It has nothing to do with God and everything to do with an inability to accept reality. The reality is that you are an animal. An animal that can not deal with the reality of life so you have to make up a God .It is a God that suspiciously looks like you. You embrace this God with everything you have because you have nothing else. You are not educated so you lack the ability to understand complicated themes. This God tells you that is good. You don’t really have real personal relationships because women scare you to death. You have a bad job where everyone makes you feel like you are nothing. But this puffed up feeling of being a warrior for Christ sooths your deflated ego. Hey if you can’t have real self worth why not grab onto this. It will only cost a few dollars a week and it makes you feel like you are a real man. Soon you are so addicted to feeling superior without the necessity of any proof of that superiority that you forget why you started in the first place.

But wait nothing but your little cult is validating this. Moreover it is hard, very hard, to hold on to this lie. What can you do to hold onto it? It scares the hell out of you when you think you may lose this. Face it is the only thing between you and a rifle on a tower.

This fear eats at you. They hear that nagging voice in the middle of the night- asking their self-am I correct. The fear is always there eating at them. The only way to put it at arms length is to convert someone else. When this happens they can rest because someone else believes as they do. But this peace does not last long. It does not last because they know in their heart that God does not exist. They call this “crises in faith” but it is reason raising its ugly head. It is a reasoning that can not be denied no matter how hard they push it away. They have never seen this imaginary God. The earth has been proven to be older then the bible claims. It has a virgin birth that makes no sense. It has a God, and son and Holy Spirit that is the same being. It goes on and on and they see no sign of Him loving them without the hardest stretch.

Maybe this awful fear would go away if everyone believed like them. That’s the ticket. They become masters at lying to their self to the point that they believe their own lies. They will proselytize because everyone should know the word of God. They forget it is their fear of reality and truth. The self –inflated ego has now become a reality. The source of this puffed up pride is forgotten. The roots of fear, self loathing, and failure are wrapped up into a shinny God package that is unbelievable bright and independent of their making. Even better they can not even open the package until they are dead. It is perfect. It shows the true beauty of the human mind to cope with life when otherwise it would completely self destruct.

Shirley

As usual Shirley nails it.

Theist vs Atheist

Can a cohesive community become our higher self? - Beliefnet

You speak as if God existed He would have to be contained within religion ...

It is my understanding that God created creation and put in place all of the laws, both physical and spiritual, for His creation to operate ...
Seefan

"A concise explanation of the fundamental and irreconcilable difference between a theist and an atheist view of God."

God as Tinkerer

QWERTY - Beliefnet

Maybe God isn't so much of a Designer as He is a Hobbyist Tinkerer. Instead of buying a new computer, He just uses scraps of electronics from around the house and rigs one.
Iwantamotto

You might have got me thinking about a designer for the first time. It at least fits all the data."

Suspension of Disbelief

Credibility of Miracles - Beliefnet

Has anyone on the board had the experience of being able to believe something that wasn't actually believable to you, simply by deciding to do so?
McAtheist

"I assume here you are not talking about suspension of disbelief. Part of enjoying a movie or a book is accepting for the duration of the experience that the characters are real or suspending disbelief in the fact that they are fictional creations. I have no issues at all with doing this, but when the credits roll or the book is closed the characters are back in the category of fictional. The problem I have with believers is that they cannot make this distinction. They put the Bible back on the shelf, but God doesn't go away.

This is characteristic of small children. Dick, Jane and Spot are real and stay in the childs world. On my 5th birthday I got The Red Pony as a gift, and for a year or so Jody was my best friend. He went with me to school, I played in his barn. As my mind matured I learned the difference between my real friends and Jody. I always wondered why my religious friends did not make this distinction with their real friends and God."