Contributions of Christianity?

The Biblical Self-Destruct Clause - Beliefnet:
El Cid wrote in an otherwise worthless thread:

"Almost everything good about western societies is the result of Christians and Christianity."

Hardly. You need to learn a little history, my friend. Ancient Egypt gave us strong mathematics; ancient Greece gave us philosophy, medicine, and natural history; ancient Rome gave us the system of government we largely use to this day, law, charity, hygiene, and marvelous architecture; the Enlightenment gave us science and modern logic in SPITE of the Christians.

If we had been waiting around for the Christians (who have thought the 'end was nigh' since Paul) to do anything real for humanity, we'd have been waiting a long time. They managed to give us a working calendar, almost by accident, and not without controversy, but that's about it.
Tolerant Sis

The Existence of God

What is an atheist? - Discuss Atheism - Beliefnet Community

"At the risk of being thrown out of the atheist club by some theists I don't deny the existence of God.

I am convinced that some theists, influenced by their tradition are able to create God by their prayers and other actions usually in their churches. The fact that God is created by people, in their own image no less, and has existence only in their living minds does not mean that God is not real. At least for them. You might convince them that they are wasting time, money and emotional energy on this God.  But you have about the same chance of convincing them it does not exist as you have of convincing a small child that herm imaginary friend does not exist.

A reason a child outgrows an imaginary friend is that nobody else has the same friend unless they go to Sunday School. There they find everybody has an imaginary friend as well that will befriend them."

The creation of God, which a theist will never admit to, is a speculative process certainly.  In the traditional churches especially the Catholic the ritual and the liturgy interpreted by the congregation and local priests, but based on the long tradition preceding them will create the God that they all feel is with them in the church.  God will be unique to each parish although there will be some commonality with most similar traditions.

On even days I think that the creation is a collective consciousness process in which all "tune into" the consciousness of all. I call this the chamber music model.  Where all are hearing the same music in their minds and simply playing it together.  Probably one person usually the priest or first violin is the actual creator, but all will influence the collective result.  This might be thought of as the mental wiki model where one lays out the characteristics of God and others add their notes, comments, and emphasis.  The basics come from the tradition that all are familiar with, the score in the music analogy, and build their unique God from there. 

On odd days I think the Priest creates God which the parishioners tap into.  I call this the maestro model where the maestro interpreting the score creates the music that all are listening to with their consciousness.  There may be some feedback from the parishioners, but the priest is in charge and any changes are made at herm discretion .  I am confident that the larger churches work on this model.

In either case the tradition is a guide, not a straight jacket, as are the directives from the denomination.  

Maturity in Theists and Atheists

What is an athiest? - Beliefnet

I realized why I think of a certain type of atheists this way, it is because they do remind me so much of fundamentalist Christians. But for the sake of argument I think I have come up with better terms to describe these types of atheists in relationship to other atheists and in relationship to their glaring similarity with fundamentalist Christians. Keep in mind I am not saying atheism is a religion. We all know it is not. These terms have nothing to do with age.

Mature Atheist/Mature Theist

1) They are mainly concerned with how they view the universe and do not understand why others want to change other people’s views.
2) They are comfortable with their views.
3) They like listening to others views.
4) They like or at least do not run away when new ideas which cause them cognitive dissidence. It gives them something to maul over.
5) They like people who challenge them.
6) They see a certain type of change as growth not as an indicator of being inconsistent.
7) They do not make changes lightly it is almost always a gradual change and it is never done out of fear.
8) If no one else thought like they did they would still not change their views because popularity of views is not important to them.
9) Their morality is like an invisible undershirt that is with them at all times. It is made up of hundreds of little pieces that have been sewn together. Each piece has been picked with great care. The welfare of not only their self but many others has been considered while picking each piece.
10) Their family, clubs, and friends are not picked because they share their views about the existence of God or the non-existence of God.

Immature Atheist/Immature Theist

1) They do not trust anyone that does not share their view. Be it that a god does not exist or that a God does exist.
2) They know they are correct.
3) They think that everyone would be better off thinking like them.
4) They feel distain for people who do not think like them.
5) Their mind is closed to others who do not think like them in debates.
6) They can not admit to others logical points even when they know they are logical.
7) They are fearful.
8) They think they know the truth and anyone that can not see that is ether stupid, brainwashed or angry.
9) They can not change therefore they can not grow because to them it would mean they were not correct before and they can not handle that.
10) They pick their family ,clubs and friends because they agree with them about God existing or not existing.

What do you think?

Shirley

As usual Shirley, you nailed it.

About the only thing you left out was that Mature Atheists and Mature Theists will be working comfortably together to build the Cosmopolitan society that is the only hope for the survival of the human race, as well as in most other useful human activities.

The moral undershirt in 9) is well described by Kwame Appiah in Cosmopolitanism: Ethics in a World of Strangers.

I am sure maul is a spell-checker ambiguity in 4) but I love it. There is nothing more fun than mauling over cognitive dissonance. If you can't resolve it, just get a bigger maul.

Absolute good

Valid Criticism or Projection? - Discuss Atheism - Beliefnet Community

The absolute standard for "good" is that which facilitates social living for all people. Which definitely excludes God. By any definition God facilitates only for believers, and frequently only for some of them.

Existence

Valid Criticism or Projection? - Beliefnet

I have no problem at all with existence. It needs no modifier, it needs no definition, it is observable wherever we look, or touch, or listen, or use any of the other senses, augmented as necessary by scientific tools to experience it. I have no problem experiencing the awe, wonder, and even transcendence that existence provides free and uninterpreted to anyone not blinded by God beliefs. If you wish to interpolate a necessary something between you and existence, again be my guest. Since you can't even begin to describe this "necessary" something it seems to me like you are simply placing an opacity between you and existence that requires that little tinhorn in the fancy dress in the overdecorated balcony to tell you when you can experience existence. Thank you. I can do without the tinhorn and herm God, and go direct to the source.

On God

Valid Criticism or Projection? - Beliefnet

Whether it is the idea of Deity, Deity itself, The Whichness of the Why, The Woo-Woo Wishiness, or the supernatural omnipotent alpha humanoid, or whether it is defined or undefinable. It makes no difference. Whatever it is it is worthless to anyone except the believer. The believer may think it is the be all, or the ultimate ground of being, that which is greater than all things, or simply God. Believers are welcome to it. God bless them. They need it.

Abiogenesis

Valid Criticism or Projection? - Beliefnet

Almost: Life, consciousness and intelligence are well explained properties resulting from ordinary reactions of organic chemistry. Under suitable conditions of, in the case of the third rock from the sun, water, land and an energy source which may have been geothermal or solar organic chemicals get concentrated and react. Once sufficient quantities of adenine, cytosine, guanine, thymine, and uracil get concentrated in a local area they begin to form long chains of pairs of bases. Like any chemical process some are more stable than others and the more stable forms predominate by using up material from the less stable forms. We can only guess at what some of the stable forms looked like but eventually a chain we now identify as DNA became dominant because not only was it extremely stable but it could replicate itself, and use a similar chain we now identify as RNA to help it manage its environment. From that point it is only a matter of time, lots of it, for consciousness and intelligence to be manifested as we see in several land and marine animals.

Valid Criticism?

Valid Criticism or Projection? - Beliefnet
"OK. Phrase by phrase deconstruction of a common Christian argument:

Atheists say: This should read "Deluded theists assert with absolutely no support or knowledge of anything that "atheists say." Atheists do no say anything of the sort. In a lifetime of discussing science and religion with atheists and intelligent believers I have never heard anything like your statement which you erroneously or maliciously attribute to atheists.

"Emergent properties" Emergent properties is a theist buzz word that they think means somehow being generated by some woo-woo higher power, God, or other unknowable numenous activity. It means nothing except "We don't know what is going on, we don't want to find out, we will blame it on God.

"Unexplained laws of physics" have absolutely nothing to do with Life, consciousness and intelligence for believers and atheists alike. Physics deals with interactions of mass and energy. There are no unexplained laws of physics for emergent properties to "emerge from." There are areas of physics where the explanations are tentative, but those are generally in the quantum physics area of subatomic particles and forces which do not affect life consciousness and intelligence.

"Altogether different" from what? Those unexplained laws? Certainly believers can't tell the difference between what they don't know and what they observe, but atheists do not suffer from this disability. We know what we don't know an are comfortable with not knowing, as that is simply a challenge to learn more. We don't need woo-woo to put areas of knowledge off limits.

"(If not altogether different,)" not different from what? Unexplained laws of physics? From woo-woo numenous whatevers? Or is "whatevers" too specific for you perhaps I should simply use numenosities.

WTF is "all mechanism" do you have a clue to what you are talking about here? Are you referring to, since the reference is to physics the electrochemical nerve impulses? If so why don't you say so, because they are not God inspired nerve impulses?

"including every judgement" A believer buzzword that tries to pretend that one mental concept is different from other mental concepts and some of which are so different that they can't be the result of electrochemical nerve impulses, but must originate in some numenosity that is forever beyond the capability of the electrochemical neural network that defines the human mind. Certainly beyond a believers mind, but what isn't?

Judgments, moral and social choices, spiritual thoughts, even transcendent mental states, are all natural and normal activities of life with consciousness and intelligence. They are normally the result of neurochemical activity in certain areas of the brain which provide the mental rewards for useful brain activity."

Seeking God

Standards of evidence - Beliefnet
Finding God has nothing to do with choosing to seek or reject God. It has to do with first and foremost to do with whether there is a God worth seeking. Some people through training and character are willing and able to seek and usually find whatever God a majority of their respected friends suggest is worthy of finding. Others again through training and character tend to examine the God a respected friend or group of friends is suggesting, that is, for example reading the entire Bible, to find out what Jewish and Christian friends recommend as a God worth finding. This is always a disaster. Even the Christians who really read the bible have trouble with their faith.

If you think you know of a God that you think is worth my trouble to seek, give me some data to look at and I will think it over. Warning: I have studied the Mass. the Requiem, and most of the Christian Prayers in depth and read several versions of the Bible including the major Catholic and Protestant Bibles in traditional and modern language versions and while I have learned many valuable things in the process I still haven't figured out a reason to seek God.

I am an atheist Jesuist. But Jesus makes a lousy God, and the one he apparently believed in has been thoroughly evaluated and is not worth seeking.

Life in a Christian Country.

Poor Christian or Bad Atheist? - Discuss Atheism - Beliefnet Community

While it might fry your brain, think about the fact that by one study 76% of Americans are Christian. That means that even for the small percentage of born atheists most of their friends attempted to brainwash them into God beliefs. Intellectually lazy would be to say why not? I could go to church, mumble with the rest of them and make it through to coffee hour without a moment's thought just like the rest of them.

I would say that combating this overwhelming majority many of which actively proselytize most of the time is intellectually quite difficult. Even getting them off your doorstep is an intellectual challenge of the highest order. Especially since rude doesn't work. The only effective tactic I have found is quoting the parts of the Bible they don't want to hear. The context of their tract works very well.
J'C

The thread is worth a skim.

On Proselytizing

UGH! - Beliefnet

From a decent thread on the subject.


I, and I suspect most atheists, have no interest in converting anyone. I have nothing to convert them to.



** Knock, Knock, Knock** "Hi! I'm J'Carlin! Do you have a minute to find out about the nothing I want you to believe in? Just study this tract. It just looks like a plain piece of paper, but if you read it carefully you will find out all there is to know about nothing. I am sure you will convert when you learn you don't have to get out of bed on Sunday morning.

J'C

Tell all the Truth but tell it slant

"Tell all the Truth but tell it slant" - Beliefnet

This is why I think people like the one I quoted like proselytizing, but remember I am speaking in general about people who proselytize.

It takes no courage to come here and attack atheists. All it takes is an arrogance that is sadly unearned. Proselytizing for your evangelical God is not an act of love for God. It is not even an act of love for your fellow man. It is an act of self love. It is the sin of pride. That puffed up feeling of thinking you are the voice of God. It has nothing to do with God and everything to do with an inability to accept reality. The reality is that you are an animal. An animal that can not deal with the reality of life so you have to make up a God .It is a God that suspiciously looks like you. You embrace this God with everything you have because you have nothing else. You are not educated so you lack the ability to understand complicated themes. This God tells you that is good. You don’t really have real personal relationships because women scare you to death. You have a bad job where everyone makes you feel like you are nothing. But this puffed up feeling of being a warrior for Christ sooths your deflated ego. Hey if you can’t have real self worth why not grab onto this. It will only cost a few dollars a week and it makes you feel like you are a real man. Soon you are so addicted to feeling superior without the necessity of any proof of that superiority that you forget why you started in the first place.

But wait nothing but your little cult is validating this. Moreover it is hard, very hard, to hold on to this lie. What can you do to hold onto it? It scares the hell out of you when you think you may lose this. Face it is the only thing between you and a rifle on a tower.

This fear eats at you. They hear that nagging voice in the middle of the night- asking their self-am I correct. The fear is always there eating at them. The only way to put it at arms length is to convert someone else. When this happens they can rest because someone else believes as they do. But this peace does not last long. It does not last because they know in their heart that God does not exist. They call this “crises in faith” but it is reason raising its ugly head. It is a reasoning that can not be denied no matter how hard they push it away. They have never seen this imaginary God. The earth has been proven to be older then the bible claims. It has a virgin birth that makes no sense. It has a God, and son and Holy Spirit that is the same being. It goes on and on and they see no sign of Him loving them without the hardest stretch.

Maybe this awful fear would go away if everyone believed like them. That’s the ticket. They become masters at lying to their self to the point that they believe their own lies. They will proselytize because everyone should know the word of God. They forget it is their fear of reality and truth. The self –inflated ego has now become a reality. The source of this puffed up pride is forgotten. The roots of fear, self loathing, and failure are wrapped up into a shinny God package that is unbelievable bright and independent of their making. Even better they can not even open the package until they are dead. It is perfect. It shows the true beauty of the human mind to cope with life when otherwise it would completely self destruct.

Shirley

As usual Shirley nails it.

More Changes

Fox has sold beliefnet to ????. It can't be much worse. The Fox life support in community has been excruciating. Maybe it can be cured, if not. Oh well,

Is is is?

Valid Criticism or Projection? - Beliefnet

I have no problem at all with existence. It needs no modifier, it needs no definition, it is observable wherever we look, or touch, or listen, or use any of the other senses, augmented as necessary by scientific tools to experience it. I have no problem experiencing the awe, wonder, and even transcendence that existence provides free and uninterpreted to anyone not blinded by God beliefs. If you [a theist] wish to interpolate a necessary something between you and existence, again be my guest. Since you can't even begin to describe this "necessary" something it seems to me like you are simply placing an opacity between you and existence that requires that little tinhorn in the fancy dress in the overdecorated balcony to tell you when you can experience existence. Thank you. I can do without herm and herm God, and go direct to the source.

Truth in Fiction

A comment on this post from Rationally Speaking

J'C: "Humans are story telling creatures. We learn about living in our society "Around the campfire" from fables and stories all of which are fictional. A powerful fictional story works not because of the characters or what happens to them but because the social structures they are embedded in provide meaningful social information whether we agree with it or not. Several of the novels mentioned above, "Gone With the Wind," "Grapes of Wrath," "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress," among many others all provided depictions of a social ethic which whether we agreed with it or not, was part of the social fabric in which we live or could live.

Probably the best philosophy course I took was entitled "Philosophy from Literature." Starting with Homer, and stopping off every few hundred years until we reached James Joyce's Ulysses. The basic premise of the course was what can you learn about your society from the literature of various past societies?"

Fiction allows the author or anonymous authors of most of the fiction and fables from which we derive our mores to explore those mores in ways that direct exposition cannot. The characters can and do react in "unacceptable" ways that people can learn from. Note I am not excluding the religious fictions which guide religious mores.

I have learned almost everything I know about social mores from fiction. I read almost nothing else. I would much rather read a very smart person telling a good story embedded in a well thought out social structure than an equally smart sociologist trying to figure out a social structure from observation of reality. The sociologist is extremely limited by having to describe and reason from existing social structures, and trying to guess why some are dysfunctional, and some seem to work. The very smart novelist, playwright or poet simply plops his characters into a social structure that is close enough to a real structure to be recognizable, and show how the fictional characters react to it. The writer is not limited to reality but can explore variations on reality to see how the fictional characters might respond to the challenges presented by that variation.

June 19, 2010 12:20 AM

Coming Population Crash

The Reproductive Revolution: How Women Are Changing the Planet's Future: Scientific American

But more than 60 countries—containing approaching half of the world's population—already have fertility rates at or below the rate needed to maintain their populations long-term. The club now includes most of the Caribbean islands, Japan, South Korea, China, Thailand, Sri Lanka, Iran, Turkey, Vietnam, Brazil, Algeria, Kazakhstan and Tunisia. Within 20 years, demographic giants like Indonesia, Bangladesh, Mexico and India will in all probability also have below-replacement fertility.

The Source of Morality.

MORAL LAW... - Beliefnet
Humans are social animals and the behavioral imperatives or moral structures ultimately come from the local society(s) of which we are a part. Typically this is a religious society, and while the morals claim to be from God, each local parish or congregation has its own take on God's moral edicts. And woe be it to the member that violates any of these moral edicts, expressed or implied. While God's moral "absolutes" are theoretically universal, and applicable to all, in practice one congregation hates fags, one hates evolutionists, one hates all sex, etc. Even within God's realm one can pick and choose almost any moral structure one likes, just by looking at churches to belong to based on morality. Of course no one does. The milk church morality is the absolute morality of God.

Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.
George Bernard Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra.

As one moves beyond ones church or village, it becomes necessary to choose among the society values including the morals of the various societies one comes in contact with. One's job will have one set, ones, church another, ones school still another set particularly if it is a public school (in the US.)

As one moves into the complex intertwined societies of the modern world it becomes necessary to be aware of the local moral structure so you don't violate it inadvertently. One may violate it intentionally or ignore it, but one must know why and how to cover up if necessary. From there it is an easy step for a thoughtful person to choose common moral structures "Love thy neighbor..." "Do unto others..." and less common ones that may be necessary for one's self respect.

Ultimately the people one chooses as herm society, people of compatible morality from work, church, school, and neighborhood, will determine the tribe from which morality is constructed. Note that the morality is the commonality from which one builds a society. But for reasonable people it is clear that morality is neither absolute nor universally applicable. That does not mean that for the individual it is not rigidly enforced. In the modern world one cannot afford to lose one's chosen social support structure, whatever that is, by compromising its mores.

Modern teen sexuality

How do atheists deal with sexual morality - Beliefnet
Abstinence education has been a total failure even among the most fervent believers not only because of peer pressure and cultural conformity, which are powerful drivers for sex. But in prehistory and until recently marriage was defined as having sex, and for women it normally happened shortly after puberty, for men a little later, probably because they had to compete with all of the successful men in the community for the available young women. But when you add breeding instinct to peer and social pressure, the only moral response is to teach responsible, contraceptive and prophylactic sex however you want to define responsible sex. Forget abstinence it is not responsible sex it is unnatural, anti-social, and anti-peer.

Responsible sex by my definition is informed consent by both partners, radical respect for the health, emotional needs and wishes of any sexual partner, (if you have sowed any wild oats, that means prophylactic sex until medically proven to be STD free six months after last oating) and an intent to form a pair bond leading to marriage and children at an appropriate time. It does not mean waiting for the appropriate time to have sex, it means contraceptive sex until then.

Sexual morality for Churches.

How do atheists deal with sexual moral(s) - Beliefnet

"I think the message from all churches should change from no sex until marriage, to no children until marriage. The fact of the matter is that kids have sex and no church or God will change that. You might remember that God's instruction was "Be fruitful and multiply." Hesh didn't say when or how. But then it wasn't until recently that anyone had any control over the when and how."

"It is interesting to me that kids with the proper training in the benefits and responsibility of sexual activity as well as the knowledge and means to prevent pregnancy and STDs are down right prudish about casual sex." They know that when they find the right partner that sex will be wonderful, safe, loving and bonding. Most important it will allow them to pair bond as nature intended, at the age when pair bonding is most effective and defer children as desired for educational needs or simply getting established in a career before taking on the added responsibility of parenting. They chose their partner for first sex very carefully with the full intention of establishing a strong pair bond for future children.

"However, they are well aware of the emotional bonding of sexual activity, and generally don't want to risk bonding with a jerk. A roll in the hay with an anonymous stranger or even a classmate loses all allure, as it is not forbidden, just stupid. I know a few sexually active kids well enough to talk about it, and to hear them talk about their friends having casual sex will blister the paint on the room they are in."

Transcendence and the Mind

Beliefnet

"Transcendence differs from ordinary conscious states for me by simply focusing all of the mind's resources on whatever it is that is stimulating the transcendence. That focus by the way does not shut off the analytical functions but focuses them on the transcendent experience." Which is why meditation at least of the Buddhist tradition does not work for me. I can focus the minds resources on nothing, but why? It is just a cartoon with an empty balloon. A rainbow works just as well and is much prettier than nothing.

"It doesn't interfere with the reproducible transcendence of Bach's Ricercare (preferably by Marie-Claire Alain) to understand the way the melodies and the harmonies interact to produce the transcendence." Just as it doesn't interfere with the reproducible transcendence of a rainbow to understand the physics of why I am always at the focus.