Facts Truths and Half-truths

The Unification of Science and Religion - Beliefnet

What! No blocks to creativity?? That means you doubt the relevance of facts. Extraordinary. I thought it was only those like Whitehead who were aware of this

'There are no whole truths; all truths are half- truths. It is trying to treat them as whole truths that plays the devil.' -- Alfred North Whitehead
2bme

J'C: "Nice argument from incredulity there. Then you go on to tell me how I think. Cool.

I never was a big fan of Whitehead. I found his ideas muddy and confused filled with statements like the above. Categorical half-truths treated as whole truths. I got a half-truth to sell you, but don't worry I will sell it at full price.

Just for the record I do not doubt the relevance of facts. I have never encountered truth. Half or whole. Certain ideas stimulate the truth centers in my mind, so I accept them, but always provisionally. Not that they are half-truths, just that they are provisional truths. That is true unless something comes along to modify or falsify them."

An interesting confusion here between facts, half-assed-facts, and truth. Facts are verifiable by investigation and are generally agreed to be factual by those willing to investigate them. Half-assed-facts are urban legends, myths, rumors, and stories that sound like they might be verifiable, and may in fact be so. Or why Snopes.com exists. Half-assed-facts are usually presented solemnly as fact and generally expected to be accepted as such.

Truth is a statement that is evaluated by an individual as being irrefutable. Identifying truth seems to be an innate function of the human mind/brain. It starts with the truths learned at mother's knee, and goes on to those presented by authority figures particularly authority figures in positions of power or speaking for God. There is no such thing as a half-truth as Whitehead claims. The mind/brain does not work that way. It may be that Whitehead is speaking of provisional truth in his statement, I am not familiar with the context, but either the mind/brain accepts the statement as true, that is usable without thought or qualm, or it is not. The mind/brain does not accept maybes in its truth function. Even a provisional truth in a skeptical mind is nonetheless a truth. It is apparent in hard skeptics who are happy to assert the truth that eg. ESP cannot exist, or God is a myth. Truth is an intensely personal evaluation. Where people get in deep trouble is asserting a personal truth as general. Especially with respect to God. Existence of God is as personal an issue as sex, and should be treated as such in any discussion.

Pre Existing Condition

Thanks
Tony Auth

Secret of Life: Death

Quality of Life - Beliefnet

"The Greatest Secret in life is the sure, certainty of death...it causes us to strive to leave our mark upon the Earth." If one is convinced that striving to improve one's life, the lives of their family and the lives of humans in general is futile, for any reason, one might attempt to 'opt out' of 'This Life' in preference for some promised 'better life,' somewhere other than the Earth. (I include in that group of 'alternatives' Heaven, Nirvana, 'Enlightenment' (of several different flavors, etc.)
exploringinside "

As Forrest Church would point out the secret of leaving our mark is the quality of our love. Not just for those closest to us, but for all we choose to include as "our society." Back when I was a UU that was supposed to mean "All people" but that was dispiriting as one cannot leave ones mark on "All People." It is much too easy to turn away from leaving ones mark to less worthy activities like group hugs without love of AIDS walks or kicking in a few excess bucks to UUSC and be done with it.

When Forrest ended a sermon it was always "Amen. I love you!" Who did he really love? I can't speak for him and cannot ask, and frankly I thought it was a little hokey until I read "Love and Death." But when I interpreted it (my interpretation not Forrest's) as I love those who will pay attention, be affected by my thinking, and pass forward the message and "Amen. I love you!" not from Forrest but from themselves it makes "the mark" make sense. We affect those we love, whether they are those nearest and dearest to us or those we may not even think of who love us and are affected by what we do and say if and only if we love them.
Amen. I love you!

What is a Human?

The Human Condition, - Beliefnet

Can you make a reasoned argument as to what is Man? No.
2bme

J'C: "It is obvious you are speaking for yourself in answering this question. I have no problem with a reasoned argument as to what is a human. First of all your use of 'Man' is the major part of your problem. People come in two sexes, and as KW would point out also two genders. Any reasoned argument about humans must take those facts into account. A human is a social, sexual, reasoning animal. The primary evolutionary advantage of humans was their abstract and symbolic reasoning capability which allowed them to pass up predation and gathering for herding and farming. This lead to large social groupings that needed complex interaction rules that is morality to allow the groups to function and accomplish all of the chores necessary for the society to grow and prosper. Many of the chores consisted of preserving the lore and knowledge of not only the tools and techniques, but the socializing and educating of the tribe. Another function was the integrity of the society, both in protecting it from intrusions and from internal sedition. All of this taxed the abstract and symbolic reasoning capability of the people to the utmost and some found ways to delegate the most difficult of these chores to tribal leaders, shamans, and ultimately to God.

Gender roles were dictated by biology for much of human history, women were in charge of the education and nurturing of the children and social cohesion. They were tied to the hearth by biology and their substantial economic contribution was home based. Clothing and tool manufacturing especially. The social cohesion provided by the casual conversation at the water source, the marketplace and the church.

Men were less tied to the hearth and frankly less valuable to the community so were assigned the dangerous chores of herding and predator control including the smartest and most dangerous predator, other humans. If things were going well men had time to think about more abstract things like why things were as they were, and how to understand their world so that they could make it better. Some were unable to participate in this intellectual activity and 'built the Cathedral' by sweeping the floor. Or protected the village by fighting on the periphery.

All changed radically when medicine and hygiene made fecundity of women perhaps an undesirable feature, and women were able to limit family size and have a decent chance of one child equaling one productive adult. The world is still shaking this major evolutionary change out."

The usefulness of God and religion was in keeping the floor sweepers and cannon fodder focused on the glorious afterlife. Valhalla, Asgard , Heaven, all with pie in the sky after you die, particularly if you died in the service of God. Please note that this is of need only for males who are taught from infancy to serve God and the shaman in any way they could, and if they could do nothing else do what the shaman says and God will take care of them in the afterlife. They were given strict rules to keep them under the shaman's control, and internalized their worthlessness relative to the shaman and God. This works very well for those that are unable to deal with the human male condition of subservience and worthlessness. The streets of heaven are paved with gold, and the whole universe is a playpen. God only knows how they would learn to play in that playpen, but they never think about that. And as for all the beautiful virgins without the necessary physical equipment you can't even jerk off.

We will see how it all shakes out. The God guys are out-breeding their resources, with significant help from the Pope, although the Pope is also insuring that AIDS will help with the population problem. Those controlling their breeding also control most of the resources. It will be interesting to see what they do with them. The main resource being intellectual of course, China, parts of India, Europe, and parts of the US are using those intellectual resources very effectively. How they will "share" will probably be ugly.

Problem with Pascal's wager

Problem with Pascal's wager - Beliefnet

J'C: "If Pascal had a delete button he would have used it for this brain fart.

As I noted in the other thread even if I were guaranteed an eternity of bliss worshiping the glory of God, it is still a bad bet. Even if I bet on the right God. And spent the right amount of time learning how to worship the glory of God. What do I win? An eternity of more of the same. Talk about SSDD."

It is high time fler0002 made the blog.

fler0002 1/15/2004 11:15 PM

And we also discover that only those who believed in God and gave their lives to Him will enter into heaven and those who didn't will go to the torment of hell... what then??

What is it that you find to love in a deity that threatens you with eternal torment if you make one wrong decision?

Does a perfect deity sound like one who feels that it is just to torment you forever because of a choice you made based on the limited knowledge, and some erroneous knowledge, that you had when you made the choice?

Or does it sound like a shell game designed to play upon your fears in order to persuade you to believe?

Does it sound like a policy that benefits the church more than it benefits the believer?

Does it sound like a plan to intimidate the uncertain by depicting their 'loving' deity as one that is bigger, stronger, and incomparably more vicious?

Does it sound like a plan that not only creates fears of what happens after death, but also creates in humanity fears of each other? Fears of any tolerance for anything other than what is sanctified by the church. Fears that turn into hatreds. Fears that turn into witch hunts. Fears that turn into jihads, crusades, and terrorism. Fears that turn into sexual abuse.

You are welcome to indulge yourself in all those fears. I for one have chosen to use reason to dispell them. I don't have to live with those fears, and consider Pascal to be a coward.

Wingnuts: Carpe Diem

Optimism - Beliefnet

Your implied strategy seems to be hope for the best and suddenly die, though a little more information would have saved your life. Is this what God wants? Don't worry about hazards, don't worry about disease, don't worry about your food supply ... live for today and, if you die tomorrow—though it could have been easily or not-so-easily prevented—so be it?
Wiscidea

J'C: "Nothing implied about it. This is the real strategy of the religious wingnuts. I am all for it. I just wish God would collect them sooner rather than later."

The trick will be to not be caught in the snares God uses to catch them. The most dangerous is the nuclear solution to the problem of Islam. It won't be the US, but I wonder how long China will put up with the flies before they swat them. The US wingnuts will eliminate themselves with obesity and despair from loss of economic support for their merry-go-round. The banks they won't regulate will foreclose on their homes, Wallmarts, and churches, and Jim Jones is always around the corner. Unfortunately the universe is blind, pitiless, and indifferent. So is God.

Optimism - The world is predictable, therefore I am.

Optimism - Beliefnet

The dissonance arises in that you cannot really answer, 'Why is the world predictable?' The world is predictable, therefore I am.
Godman

J'C: "You just answered it. The world has natural laws. The world exists in a certain position relative to its major energy source. This insures that the observed fact of carbon based life is highly probable, and once started life gets more mobile and smarter until therefore I am. It was not inevitable, the bears or the cetaceans, might still win as humans kill themselves off, and there will always be cockroaches."

Talk about the blind squirrel.

What is the Calling of a Minister?

Active Christian Ministers who are also Atheists - Beliefnet

In respect to the ministers, they are teaching to have faith in God. They preach to come from a place of truth. They are not following their advice. I am not judging them, just an observation. I find it iteresting that the reasons in the video -financial, alienation, a built history are exactly the reasons that this philosophy would say they would continue to stay in this situation. My view is more New Agey , but there are similar Christian views that say essentially the same. Actually these reason from the video/this philosophy are common human conditions that call for much compassion.
Myownpath

J'C: "I wonder if ministers are called to have faith in God and preach from the truth, or if they are called to minister to those that call them using God and the truth as tools. When I was wondering whether I was called to the ministry, I had no God nor truth to sell, and I didn't have enough charlatan in me to expect to get rich. But I did think I could help people get past the difficult issues in their lives. (hence the arrogant preachyness. Ever hear of the boy scout who frog-marched the LoL across the street to get his merit badge.) I wondered if I could do it without God. My HS MMPI said I should be a circuit preacher. Fortunately, I had different wrong ideas for myself, and made my own mistakes not the shrink's.

I have the same wonder about the new age gurus. Are they really just trying to make a quick buck off the gullible, or are they really doing what they can to help those who have been failed by their Preachers. People send me new age stuff as if they are doing me a favor then wish me to repay it by reading the crap and discussing it with them.

I am sure some are happy with the bucks (as I am, I sold Deepak a BMW) but I find many of them a necessary bridge to a less faith based, and more self-reliant religion. And like it or not we all have a religion. We cannot live in society without one. We have to know why we are alive, why we try to stay that way, and why our friends should. It also helps to have a pretty good handle on death, others and our own."

Atheist Christian Ministers.

Active Christian Ministers who are also Atheists - Beliefnet

I think a brief way to understand this view is that in order to live a full and self-actualized life it is important to not allow your decisions to be made from a position of fear and limitation -to have 'faith' all will turn out well and you will handle any struggles that arise, even if this means giving up the safer road of shutting up.
Myownpath

J'C: "Spoken like a true convert. I don't say that disparagingly. It is an important first step. The next step as EI points out is holding your tongue not out of fear and limitation but out of compassion for the other in the conversation.

If you are secure enough in your thinking and beliefs, you should not need to wear them on your sleeve but allow them to give you the inner strength to reach out to others of different ways of thinking, even perhaps your old faith although that is the most difficult, on their terms without compromising your own beliefs. When a fundie expresses their dependence on God, if they are not proselytizing, but merely expressing their immersion in God thinking, I feel no need to correct their thinking, it affects mine not a whit. I can even say 'God bless you' and mean it without compromising my atheism. A very long time ago, a friend who was a devout Catholic, with whom I had had many spirited discussions about religion, had a major tragedy in his life. Without even thinking I told him I would pray for him. He looked surprised for just a moment and then said 'Thank you. God listens even more carefully to atheists.'

I can understand a Clergyperson, who once had a strong belief system who lost faith in God but not the major tenets of the belief system could in fact be an empathetic and effective spiritual leader in spite of herm different interpretation of the word 'God.'"

J'C: When I was considering the ministry, I was actually thinking about a "Real" religion, leaning toward Episcopal, rather than my atheistic Unitarian milk church. Jesuits would have been a consideration except for the celibacy issue. Had I gone down that path I probably would have copped out as a UU but I look at Bishop Spong and wonder...

Connections

My puzzle over "something larger than ourselves" - Beliefnet

To me, you're connected to society just by being born into it and growing up a part of it; what kind of society it is, is immaterial.
BlackWingBlueSky

J'C: "It used to be that way. And still is in many places. One of the major changes in modern society is that the most intelligent leave their home society to attend the University. At the University they are forced to assemble a totally new society that may have little resemblance to the one they grew up in. There are of course some established social values but they may be quite different from home. And there is more choice. The geeks, the athletes, the social clubs, and they may overlap considerably for those so inclined. The social changes continue after graduation. People seldom go home again. Again the choices are limitless, but must be limited. But the key for many is they choose their society in which they wish to be connected. Liberating, but in most cases God stays home and can't help."

Yes this is certainly a change in which new connections are formed. Yet I somehow feel it is still superficial compared to deep connections that one could potentially feel. A loss of a loved one, deep love, profound beauty... tend to move me more.
Myownpath: followup

J'C: "The new connections are certainly not the only connections. Selected ones remain and are an integral part of the new society. As noted elsewhere the "J" in J'Carlin comes from a childhood nickname that I abandoned, lock stock and barrel, when I went away to school. And yet the people who call me J'Carlin because they can't won't think of me as Carlin are some of the most cherished people in my life. Many of them taught me of deep love, profound beauty, the love of the infinite universe. I can trace most of my most special moments to one or another person who uses J'Carlin or used to. At my age many are no longer physically able to reinforce them, but I can still live their moments in my living memory. Any time I want to I can hear my sister play the Rachmaninoff C#Minor Prelude. If I am angry, it is the violent version and once she gets to the second theme beautifully life is once again good.

Transcendence

My puzzle over "something larger than ourselves"- Beliefnet :
J'C: "As a minister once said 'Sometimes I just need to walk in the redwoods.' My avatar is a 100 meter ring of over a hundred redwood trees all of the same age. When I first came upon it many years ago it was a transcendent experience. I rounded the bend in the trail and stood stunned by the beauty, the symmetry, the sunlight playing on the trees. I knew about the way redwoods formed rings but this was not a dozen trees but a hundred. Then it occurred to me that the forest was logged 80 years ago, and the loggers found a gift of a third generation ring of 30 or so trees which they cut opening light for the hundreds of burl shoots around the outside of the ring. The fact that this redwood cathedral was man-made (sort of) nature helped a lot, in no way diminishes its wonder and beauty."

Where is the hope?

Where is the hope for the non-believer? - Beliefnet

But, I only believe in an undefined higher power some of the time, and I'm not really feeling it right now. Where do I find hope? How can I sit here and convince myself to not give up on her when I have no God to turn to?
Rteachj

J'C: "Thank you all for the round TUIT. I have been meaning to respond, as you are articulating an important issue for atheists. Where do you find hope? If there is no where for the cat to go if she has died, or grandma for that matter, how do you justify your love? I think Forrest Church's Love and Death is relevant here as I sense the issue is larger than your cat. Forrest is a Universalist deist and would, I think, have been comfortable with your undefined higher power. He was dying when he wrote the book and knew it. It is a short book, and I won't attempt to summarize it here, but it is an important book for all who have no God to turn to when death happens. Even to us."

As noted on other posts the issue of death and dying is the elephant in the atheist's living room. Until one comes to terms with the idea that this life is "All she wrote," I don't think one can really live without God. It was while I was studying the Et Expecto text that I finally realized No, I don't Expecto, that I also came to grips that this life was all I had to work with and I had damn well better do as much as humanly possible with it. Note that humanly possible has definite limits, and pushing those limits is part of being human. I will push them by loving and caring as much as I can until it is no longer possible. Then will "I lay me down with a will" and others will have to cherish my space. If I have loved enough they will find my space easy to make better.

Aesthetics and God.

Science and Beauty - Beliefnet

Science cannot verify this relationship nor can it explain the reason for the emotional response to beauty completely unnecessary for animal life.
2bme

J'C: "I am not sure what science you have been studying, but the human emotional response to beauty is not only well studied but the neurochemical reward mechanisms are well documented.

The appreciation of beauty in art and music among other things, patterns in clouds for example, begins at a very young age. One only has to watch the infant in the crib laughing as the rocking crib moves the hanging toys. It isn't until much later that the priest, shaman, or Sunday School teacher starts to impose God as the source of all that beauty. Yet another instance where God is a Johnny come lately, trying to make up for lost time. Morality, love, empathy, compassion and many others are all the property of children until God takes the candy from the baby and says "That is mine." If you are good I might let you have a taste."

J'C: This is probably my biggest beef with God. Kids do just fine in all social and aesthetic activities until someone needs to pound some God into them. Then their fine tuned morality they learned in kindergarten if they weren't corrupted before, is chopped up and parsed out by the God mediators and weird additions needed for sin are added. By the time they get to confirmation they are so screwed up that they don't know right from wrong and must pray to be saved from their sinfulness. Oh, yeah, throw a whole bunch of money in the plate so the mediator can help you find enough sins to keep the church in SUVs and Caddy's. But don't worry no hypocrisy there the mediator will be sinning right along with you.

Sumerians Look On In Confusion As God Creates World

Sumerians Look On In Confusion As God Creates World | The Onion - America's Finest News Source: "Members of the earth's earliest known civilization, the Sumerians, looked on in shock and confusion some 6,000 years ago as God, the Lord Almighty, created Heaven and Earth.
...
'I do not understand,' reads an ancient line of pictographs depicting the sun, the moon, water, and a Sumerian who appears to be scratching his head. 'A booming voice is saying, 'Let there be light,' but there is already light. It is saying, 'Let the earth bring forth grass,' but I am already standing on grass.'

'Everything is here already,' the pictograph continues. 'We do not need more stars.'
...
According to the cuneiform tablets, Sumerians found God's most puzzling act to be the creation from dust of the first two human beings.

'These two people made in his image do not know how to communicate, lack skills in both mathematics and farming, and have the intellectual capacity of an infant,' one Sumerian philosopher wrote. 'They must be the creation of a complete idiot.'"

Chosing One's Society

My puzzle over "something larger than ourselves" - Beliefnet

To me, you're connected to society just by being born into it and growing up a part of it; what kind of society it is, is immaterial.
BlackWingBlueSky

J'C: "It used to be that way. And still is in many places. One of the major changes in modern society is that the most intelligent leave their home society to attend the University. At the University they are forced to assemble a totally new society that may have little resemblance to the one they grew up in. There are of course some established social values but they may be quite different from home. And there is more choice. The geeks, the athletes, the social clubs, and they may overlap considerably for those so inclined. The social changes continue after graduation. People seldom go home again. Again the choices are limitless, but must be limited. But the key for many is they choose their society in which they wish to be connected. Liberating, but in most cases God stays home and can't help."

J'C I wonder if this is simply evolution in action. Certainly the ones that choose their society and values as adults, have a real leg up on those that are stuck in their milk society. Some will of course make the wrong choices, but that is part of being human. But enough will make the right choices that a cosmopolitan, knowledge based society will become dominant.

The humanitarian in me cries for those that will be left by the wayside, and they won't all be third world, but I see no way to change the blind, pitiless workings of the evolutionary process. My hope is that the de facto leaders, they won't be politicians, will find a way to provide for those that cannot keep up. Perhaps we are seeing it now with meaning free entertainment and sterile social networking. But I wonder. Are the overweight people serving and eating at "MacFriendly's" and selling and shopping at WalMart inexorably weeding themselves out of the gene pool? Will God help them? If so how?

Dinnertime rituals?

What's your dinnertime ritual?- Beliefnet

I personally have a desire to teach my daughter gratitude, but am not interested in typical God prayers. I think maybe reading a different poem each night might be nice, and a conversation starter... I dont know...
Sasham

J'C: "A nice pre-dinner ritual I was recently introduced to is to go around the table and each person says 'Today, I thank ...' and 'Today, I learned...' Talk about conversation starters!"

I checked with Nick Manfred who introduced me to it. It turns out I missed part and added the thanks.

Someone starts. They describe the favorite part of their day and may talk about it as much as they want. Others may ask questions but can't take over the spotlight. The same someone then says something they learned during the day. Others may ask questions but can't take over the spotlight. Once the second part is exhausted, the someone can then "pass" to another person of their choice and that new person repeats the story telling.

It's simple and it seems to get kids talking about what was important for them in their day without the non-starter "What did you do today?" question. It also gets the adults to listen to what is important for the kids. It also allows adults to bring adult themes into the dinner conversation which kids can learn from. My friend Dave Chappel in Penyrn taught me this dinnner deal.

Just a wonderful ritual. Thanks Nick and Dave.

The Value of Nonbelief.

What Does Atheism Have To Offer To You? - Beliefnet

Yes, I do doubt there's a benefit. Is there a benefit to a Jew who doubts Jesus? Is there a benefit to a Muslim who doubts Buddha? Doubting something in itself has no value, in my opinion. What can be valuable is a belief system, and I don't think atheism is a belief system - at least to me anyway.
rgr075

The problem with belief systems is that the package the belief system comes in may contain a whole lot of dysfunctional crap along with the valuable stuff. It is certainly possible to weed out the dysfunctional crap, but I find it much more useful to find the valuable stuff and incorporate in my life. It is much easier to do without belief, as the valuable stuff is well highlighted typically.

The other value of nonbelief is that valuable stuff can be found in sources of wisdom that don't require belief. A good novel, a work of art, a piece of music, all can provide valuable stuff, no belief required. The value of atheism is that all of the traditional belief systems can be taken without any need to consider the God basis of the belief system. Without God the good is readily apparent and the crap easily disposed of."

If atheism offers anything, it's a clean slate for which to base rational values. But it's the values themselves that seem of use to me, not necessarily the lack of belief in something supernatural.
rgr075 (followup)

J'C: "The problem with supernatural beliefs is the rational values which are admittedly plentiful, are so distorted by God that the disbelief in God can be a useful touchstone in the sorting process. Religions have a lot of good things to say about dealing with death for example, but you have to get God on Herm Great White Throne or little porcelain throne completely out of the picture to discover them. Ironclad disbelief is really helpful in sorting all the threads in the tapestry into something useful. The disbelieving mind can make the God threads go away to reveal whatever is left.

The Mass and reality.

Outward and Inward Man - Beliefnet

I can't speak for others, but religion is not about reciting the mass and feeling all warm and fuzzy in the arms of God for me. It's a journey, and a journey that sometimes takes us to the darkest parts of ourselves, where I can assure you it isn't all warm and fuzzy.

There is sacredness to life.
Wendyness

J'C: "I never implied differently. But those who have never 'Dragged the mass into the lab' probably have less appreciation for the either the warm fuzzies or the 'darkest parts of ourselves.' Especially the question of Death. I have (as an atheist, spent countless hours with the Et Expecto, and the Dies Irae of the requiem. I have tried to figure out what this meant to believers and by extension what it could mean to me. I do not believe in life after death, and yet the lab tells me that both of these sections are teaching a powerful lesson. Have you considered those lessons? The question is rhetorical. many have most have not. And yet the mass as a whole whether sung or chanted by a bored priest is a work of art that can be appreciated for itself without analysis or picking apart, but like a rainbow understanding the 'physics' of it adds to not subtracts from the wonder and beauty."

Art and Reality

Outward and Inward Man - Beliefnet Community

I suppose you think Mozart and Picasso should have been dragged 'back to the lab.'
Christianlib

J'C: "Neither Mozart nor Picasso loses anything at all by being dragged back to the lab. Indeed appreciating how both manipulate reality to create transcendent art only makes their genius, their art and the lessons they teach more meaningful and closer to what rings true. I suspect that I have a much better understanding of religion's meaning than those who have recited the mass all their lives feeling all warm and fuzzy in the arms of God, and never even trying to relate it to what is real in their lives or anybody else's."

A disciplined imagination.

Outward and Inward Man - Religion and the Human Mind - Beliefnet Community

A 'disciplined' imagination just doesn't seem very imaginative, or productive, to me. If your thoughts only go where you want them to go, I'll bet you VERY seldom experience a EUREKA! flash.
Christianlib

J'C: "You seem to be confusing discipline with control or repression. A disciplined imagination can go wherever it wants but knows the difference between imagination and reality. It can go to the farthest borders of fantasy, and can even suspend disbelief as needed, but the tether to reality stays in place and the fantasy is never confused with what is. This is not to say that one can not learn from fantasy, the eureka moments are common and useful. But finally they get pulled 'back to the lab' to be tested against what really is."