Are atheists accountable?

Held accountable? - Beliefnet Forums:

Is it fair to say that atheists don't think we will be held accountable for what we have done in our life?

I will not be held accountable by some supernatural omnipotent alpha humanoid at some imagined judgment day after I am dead and gone. But I am held accountable in real time by those who are affected by my actions. Humans are intensely social animals, and a raised eyebrow on someone we respect is instant and powerful accountability.

Similarly, something as simple as a toast with a plastic glass of orange juice on an airplane can be a powerful reminder that we need to pay continuous attention to our relationship with those closest to us.

Sometimes I wonder, if people who obsess about that Dies Irae don't miss out on these here and now accountability lessons."

Does God Exist?

A Muslim respectfully asks - What is Atheism? - Beliefnet Forums:

"I find the existence of God to be an uninteresting question. Some people find belief in the existence of God comforting for a variety of reasons, some good and some not so good, and I have no issue with their beliefs. I have found none of these reasons relevant to my life, and therefore have no reason to care whether God exists or not. My life goes on exactly the same in either case."

what an atheist think when he hear a man of science says : my results force me to admit there is a God.

"That is nice"

If a belief in God makes a person a better scientist, or a better person I am all for it. If however, the belief makes herm bigoted, or self righteous, I am likely to oppose herm attempts to proselytize or otherwise force bigotry on the rest of the world. The belief that bigotry comes from God gives them no pass. It just condemns their God. As Jesus said Matt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Rotten fruits are evidence of a rotten God.

Tax Churches' entertainment venues.

Help- "Proof" issues - Beliefnet Forums:

Tax breaks for providing services to the community that the government cannot afford to provide. I think that is reasonable.

If churches registered their charities as 501(c) organizations separate from their entertainment venues, I would have no problems with deductions to those charities. I do have a problem with special tax treatment for the entertainment venues aka churches and the entertainers who perform in them aka preachers, pastors, ministers etc. I especially object to religious organizations selling tax exempt property without paying back taxes on it out of the proceeds."

Write your congressperson, sign petition, do something

Stop the Sneak Attack on Greater Yellowstone Wolves - The Petition Site: "



Stop the Sneak Attack on Greater Yellowstone Wolves
Target: U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
Sponsored by: Defenders of Wildlife Action Fund

With the clock running out on the Bush/Cheney Administration, federal officials have launched a final attempt to ram through a plan that could lead to the slaughter of as many as two-thirds of the Greater Yellowstone and Northern Rockies wolf population."

Or as Tom Toles warns

Survival

Human Dignity, Good and Evil - Beliefnet Forums:

The desire to survive is a sentiment.

The genes to compel survival are dominant and active in all animals including humans that are alive today. From the single celled amoeba to those miraculous culminations of all those evolutionary selection activities, my grandsons, the compulsion to eat and breathe, and

Run and find out (thanks Ricki-Ticki-Tavi)

in other words survive in the modern world, is alive and well and involves no sentiment at all."

Why a Jesuist?

Who do people say the Son of Man is? - Beliefnet Forums:

"Paul is the reason I am not a Christian. God is the reason I am an atheist. Jesus is the reason I and many nominal Christians are Jesuists."

Can I join the Circus now?

Ben Sargent documents the Republicans latest attempt to stay in the public eye. Hey, if you can't govern them, at least you can entertain them.

Forrest Church discusses the odds.

STANFORD Magazine: Forrest Church Book Excerpt:

Believe me, there's nothing like a kick toward the flag to get the old blood pumping and the crowd off their bums cheering. Besides, without even trying, you've already won the only race that really matters. Unconsciously, yet omnipresent, you ran the gauntlet of stars and genomes to assume your full, nothing less than miraculous, place in the creation. Being alive to love and hurt, to fail and recover, to prove your grit and show compassion, that is life's true secret.

Leave it to Stanford to pick out the unusual in Forrest's new book. And leave it to Forrest to turn Silky Sullivan's loss in the Kentucky Derby into an inspiring sermon.

Why Catholics are irrelevant.

Priest Calls Vote for Obama a Mortal Sin - On Faith at washingtonpost.com:

"'Voting for a pro-abortion politician when a plausible pro-life alternative exists constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil, and those Catholics who do so place themselves outside of the full communion of Christ's Church and under the judgment of divine law,' Rev. Jay Scott Newman wrote in a letter to parishioners at St. Mary's Catholic Church in Greenville.

'Persons in this condition should not receive Holy Communion until and unless they are reconciled to God in the Sacrament of Penance, lest they eat and drink their own condemnation.'"

As if anyone needed any more evidence. All of the Catholics I know are by now bypassing their priests and dealing directly with God. All the priests are for is to make the soothing noises in the Mass, and bless the Eucharist. A few parishes have reasonable priests that they can talk to, but the rest....

To Nambu, Kobayasi, and Maskawa

Greetings and congratulations from my sister and Poet Laureate


To Nambu, Kobayasi, and Maskawa,
Physics Nobel Prize Winners, 2008

with apologies to William Blake


A break in the symmetry--how cosmic a thought;
A break in the symmetry, and all that it wrought.
We’d none of us be here, not you and not me,
Were it not for a break in the first symmetry.

Curious Adam and gullible Eve,
Banished from Eden, as some folks believe,
Their tale of the apple would simply not be,
Had there not been a break in their symmetry.

Mendel and Darwin, asymmetrical sages,
Genetic codes journeying down through the ages;
Ten million mutations, strange creatures to see,
All due to that break in the great symmetry.

One infinitesimal break, so inconspicuously small,
That even old Einstein didn’t see it at all;
Now wonder of wonders, the Bang and the bee,
All thanks to that break in the first symmetry.

Consider the outcomes--or just nevermind;
‘Tis likely my DNA’s about to unwind,
Some slight imperfection on a upsidedown spree,
Seeking new breaks in my symmetry.

© 2008 Bonnie Black

Will the Requiem for religion be played on Twitter?

Humanist Question : "

From where I stand [religion] is mind control and if people can learn to break free from that bondage and question limits they are not 'suppose to' question it would be like another renaissance period!

If you think back to the renaissance and religion what do you think of? Gutenberg gave the bible to the people and broke the power of the priesthood in interpreting the will of God. The increase in literacy and all the Bills thinking 4 themselves
after using the Bible to learn to read lead inevitably to the Enlightenment and the rise of ordinary people to political power as a counterforce to the power of the church.

The internet social networking may be the next and final blow to the power of religion. Web 2.0 divorced Obama from the Democratic party, and will almost certainly divorce most young adults from the need for the church as a social networking organization. When the Mullahs and the Bishops can say behave this way or you will never find a lover and make it stick, their power is increased by those there only for the social networking.

When you have to twitter on your iPhone to get the attention of your roommate at the other computer, you aren't going to waste time going to church to find a suitable partner for fun and games. "What are you doing?" "OO 4 swty sprt - Gd /rqd" The Mullahs and Bishops scream but calls to prayers on Twitter are not likely to even be read.

GM's future

According to Tony Auth

Obama on his faith.

Obama's Fascinating Interview with Cathleen Falsani - Steven Waldman:

"I retain from my childhood and my experiences growing up a suspicion of dogma. And I'm not somebody who is always comfortable with language that implies I've got a monopoly on the truth, or that my faith is automatically transferable to others.

I'm a big believer in tolerance. I think that religion at it's best comes with a big dose of doubt. I'm suspicious of too much certainty in the pursuit of understanding just because I think people are limited in their understanding.

I think that, particularly as somebody who's now in the public realm and is a student of what brings people together and what drives them apart, there's an enormous amount of damage done around the world in the name of religion and certainty."

This whole interview, just after he was nominated for the Senate race in Illinois, is well worth reading

Christmas time again

Pharyngula: Oy, it's War on Christmas time again:

It is OK to say 'Merry Christmas'. Even I have been known to say it. Go ahead, have a good time with the greeting, although it does rather rip the spirit out of it if you say it through clenched teeth with furrowed brow, looking like you're daring everyone to object so you can punch them in the throat. It's also OK to say 'Happy Solstice,' 'Season's Greetings,' 'Happy Holidays,' and 'Merry Cephalopodmas,' whatever feels right to you."

I have always liked "Wolcum Yole!" which Benjamin Britten popularized in his Ceremony of Carols. It seems to be a 14th Century folk song. that he used as his text for the opening piece after the processional.

I think the Ceremony of Carols is a wonderful celebration of all that is good about an English Christmas. Lots of pagan rhythms and fun winter party music.

Just Deserts

Or if you prefer Tom Toles take.

A million small donors

If the world could vote - Beliefnet Forums:

"I think the most important fact of the election was the million or so people who donated less than $200 to the campaign. We got nothing but spam for it, but the fact that so many contributed to his success is I think significant and personally I hope the spam continues with opportunities for feedback. Yeah, it will be poll data, but poll data from those that spent the bucks to help."

What is wrong with civil unions?

Why are Christians so obsessed with homosexuality and gay marriage? - Beliefnet Forums:

"The problem I have with civil unions is the separate but equal issue. It is the old, gays are all right as long as they lock the bedroom door and exit the house by separate doors. If my life partner, in my case female, needs some help with the bureaucracy, I want to have the status of spouse so that I can climb all over the idiots behind the desk. That is why we got the marriage certificate and had the ceremony to celebrate it. We could have had the sex and the living together without all the hassle and fuss, but it would not have been marriage. That is what you are asking the gay's to do. No marriage, no respect for the partner. It is that simple."

Human Dignity, Good and Evil - Beliefnet Forums

Human Dignity, Good and Evil - Beliefnet Forums: "You may sit out this election, which I admit is better than voting for McCain ... But there is a huge difference in which Christian God is going to be driving the Government. Your choice is the hate filled Christian™ God of those who think Atheists are not Americans or the UCC God which is inclusive and comparatively tolerant."

Pharyngula

Pharyngula: "Has anybody thought to look at what Bill Ayers actually promotes? He has a website, and it's trivial to look up what he's advocating. For instance, here is a description of his book, Teaching Toward Feedom:"

I was there in New York when the Weathermen were active. I chose other ways to protest the dysfunctional presidency of the time, but I was certainly a fellow traveler in protesting the war and the hate filled presidency. This was in the 60s not the 00s

Alaska Road would Destroy Wilderness in Izembek National Wildlife Refuge - The Petition Site

Alaska Road would Destroy Wilderness in Izembek National Wildlife Refuge - The Petition Site: "7:17 am PST, Nov 3, Carlin Black, California


If Alaska destroys its wildlife refuges it might as well sink the cruise boats. Those of us from the South 48 don't visit for the roads, and we resent the destruction of migratory bird habitat."

Vote NO on Prop H8.

- Beliefnet Forums:

"Bad Christians need Christ, and the rest of Paul to justify their evil.

This is not an academic issue.

Christians are promoting Proposition H8 in California as we write."

Palin - The mighty hunter

First the moose, then wolves, now elephants.

Tom Toles

The gay marriage wedge.

Why are Christians so obsessed with homosexuality and gay marriage? - Beliefnet Forums:

"I think homosexuality and gay marriage are simply the politically correct whipping boys for those Christians that accept the Pauline principle that sex is for procreation only and any other expression of sexuality is sin. It would be hard to generate a political movement against recreational sex in general but homosexuality and gay marriage are wedge issues that can establish the legitimacy of political regulation of sexual activities.

First the gays, then the fornicators, and pretty soon cameras in the bedrooms to insure no contraception and the missionary position only."

Forrest Church -Link to personal website.

Forrest Church, Theologian and Author:

"Available now from Beacon Press:

Forrest Church's highly praised new book,
Love and Death

'The story of the Rev. Forrest Church of the All Soul's Church in Manhattan is a profile in courage. Not just for his lifelong work helping those less fortunate, but for his perseverance in the face of a fatal illness.'"

Atheism's roots.

Expelled discussion - Beliefnet Forums:

"My atheism is firmly rooted in the dysfunctional morality and meaning promoted by theists and especially by the Abrahamic tradition in the Talmud and derivatives and by Pauline Christianity. The fact that they also promote bad science of all kinds is sort of the stem on the cherry. There are so many more important issues that if someone sees me sucking on the stem they shouldn't think it is the only thing I care about."

Is Heinlein the atheist's philosopher?

Is Heinlein the atheist's philosopher? - Beliefnet Forums:

"I have been reading Heinlein most of my life, and have always appreciated how he manages to create interesting, meaningful, purposeful and moral societies in his stories without God. I don't necessarily agree with all of the details in all of them, but in general I can say that Heinlein speaks for me as an atheist exposing the lie that meaning, purpose and morality come only from God.

I appreciate the fact that Heinlein preferred the liveliness of the market place rather than the halls of academia for his philosophical musings. Maybe all the best philosophers are good story tellers.

He was, and is, an influential social arbitrator, in spite of all the efforts to ban his books from our libraries and schools. The God Squad recognizes the danger. But the books still sell and are discussed in intelligent circles."

Why we don't screw around with Social Security.

Jeff Danziger.

In the famous words of the Title of Fred Schwed's 1940 book Where are the Customers' Yachts?

Freethought Halls of the Internet

Atheist Activism - Beliefnet Forums:

"Perhaps it is time to devote more effort to establishing a global network of Freethought Halls to serve as an alternative to faith-based outreach programs.

You are in it. It is called the Internet.

This is one of the halls. There are many others.

Even the thought police of the theocracies cannot block the satellite internet signals, although they can make the computers that receive them contraband. But book burning and computer banning cannot work, because the freethought underground will hand copy the important tracts if necessary."

Goldwater, Obama and American Politics.

Libertarianism: - Beliefnet Forums:

"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice.
Barry Goldwater

Our last great attempt to elect a Libertarian.

Unfortunately, also the last election where it was not necessary to choose between two nutcases. At least this election only two of the four are nutcases. I still think Hillary was the best president we ever had, too bad she had to marry a nutcase to get elected, but American politics has always been like that. At least Obama is overqualified as is necessary for a minority in this country.

Ah, American Politics. Maybe the internet will change that finally, so that an intelligent, qualified and maybe some time even an atheist candidate would have a chance at being elected."

Humanity's fall away from God is our salvation

Human Dignity, Good and Evil - Beliefnet Forums:

"If opposing those like Hitler are reflections of man's fallen nature, thank you, I will fall back on my basic humanity, and my social morality associated with it of opposing leaders of all stripes using hatred, bigotry and fear to motivate 'their people.' If some of these leaders claim to be motivated by God, they get no pass from those motivated by the basic human morality of respect and tolerance for all who reciprocate in kind.

Unfortunately, some little Christian tinhorns in fancy dresses in the overdecorated balconies, use these tactics in the image of God and must be opposed. Those of us who must fall back on our basic human morality, will try to use non-violent opposition where possible, which sometimes gets us in trouble, but the examples of Gandhi and Martin Luther King, both dark skinned you may note, unlike the white skin in the depictions of God in most Christian churches, give us hope that our basic human morality will ultimately prevail."

The Historical Jesus

The Historical Christ non-existant? - Beliefnet Forums:

"If you strip the obvious miracles, especially the resurrection, which Christians cannot do of course without destroying their faith, you find a charismatic itinerant preacher, who integrated a consistent message of radical humanism and independence from the god mediators, priests, and shamans. It was a theistic culture so it is not surprising that he would believe in God. The core of his message was to develop a personal relationship with God directly, no priests necessary or even desirable, and treat all humans as neighbors to be respected, aided when necessary even at considerable cost to yourself, and loved as one loves oneself....

Cults are not started by committees, which for me argues strongly that there was a historical person that was the basis for the Jesus cult for which there is some historical evidence, Paul's Christian Cult. for which there is ample historical support, the Gnostic cults, for which historical documentation has recently been discovered, and other cults rumored but for which no documentation exists.

It is clear to me that this historical person was a human that lived and died in the usual human fashion. He believed in God, but was not one himself. He was the earliest documented humanist, and I think all humanists, theistic and atheistic are indebted to him, if not obligated to worship him.

37...Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matthew 22:37-40 (King James Version)

I find the first optional, clearly an artifact of his culture. All of humanism hangs on the second."

Obama's negative ad

As I was leaving the debate midway, McCain complained about Obama's attack ad on his medical care proposal. If attacking an idiotic centerpiece of an opponent's campaign is negative campaigning, I would like to hear a clue from McCain on a reasonable debate. But then, that would assume McCain has an clue.

God and Evil Cont.

Why Athism? - Beliefnet Forums:

"Almost all Gods that are at the root of evil are believed to be supernatural. Frankly, I don't think the secular gods like money, power, prestige etc. carry enough belief intensity to compel evil. If a person cannot believe the claim 'God made me do it,' I don't think any sane human is capable of evil.

Disclaimer to our respectful guests: God is also capable of motivating much that is exceptionally good for believers and the world. And also that which is good for believers and their societies. Unfortunately, much of it depends on that little tinhorn in the fancy dress in the overdecorated balcony who interprets the will of God."

God - The Root of Evil

Why Athism? :

"

I would probably say selfishness is the root of all evil more than fear.

Nope.

God is the root of all evil. I don't care what God it is. Evil done by people is always in the service of their God."

Trickle down economics

Finally we really get to see what they mean.

Tom Toles.

Make the good people nice.

uuworld.org Meg Barnhouse: the church and the unicorn:
"We know we are supposed to be kind and loving and not jump down each other’s throats for not getting the right kind of free-trade coffee or greeting visitors too enthusiastically. I heard a poem on the radio the other day, part of which was a prayer: “Ye Gods…make the bad people good—and the good people nice.”

Honey, we’re trying."

Make the good people nice. If God could do that I might even believe in Herm.

Life After Death?

Life After Death? - Beliefnet Forums:

"

...does it also mean that you don't believe in some sort of existence beyond this one? Or are those two totally separate things--so would you find some who do and some who don't?

I would suspect that a person that does not put herm faith in God would have first resolved the Pascal Wager and arranged their life so that an afterlife is irrelevant. That is if there is one all participate, doing pretty much what they did in observable life with no sorting, hence no placating an alleged sorter. But in my experience most atheists think it is such a long shot that they don't think about it at all."

For me it is simply a pleasant fantasy to assist in remembering and celebrating those who are dead. As in: it would be nice to ask Beethoven what he was thinking about in the third movements of the first and third piano concertos. Was it really a children's playground? The chances of it happening after I die? Nil. But it happened just now, and in a real sense this might be Beethoven's afterlife.

On pricks, dicks and cunts.

the gods: "

We hear all the four letter words on TV at 7:30 every night. No big deal.
Funny how some find the C-word offensive but don't mind people being called 'dicks' or 'pricks'. Reverse sexism, perhaps?

As Tom Lehrer noted in the release of his remains, 25 years ago there were certain words you couldn't use around girls. Today you can use them all, you just can't call them girls.

As for dicks and pricks the best insult I ever heard was a NYC Cab driver: 'Hey, lady, you don't have to have one to be one!' The crowded intersection at 8th St and 5th Ave dissolved into laughter with of course one exception."

Palin - Debate performance.

McCain - Beliefnet Forums: "There is something to be said for setting expectations so low that just getting down the track without tripping over the lines marking the places for the hurdles is considered a brilliant performance."

Is God just spiritual experience?

Why Athism? - Beliefnet Forums: "I don't think spiritual experience is supernatural at all. I think it is a basic, indeed primitive human need. But I also see no reason not to strip God of all of Herm supernatural accretions, and use God as a referent for spiritual experience.

I will admit that disambiguation from the supernatural omnipotent alpha humanoid may be a greater challenge than I am up to, but I have come to the conclusion that God and that spiritual experience are one and the same. I also think it is what theists are trying to convey with their blather about God being the beauty of the cosmos, or a pretty sunset, or a butterfly."

Can believer Bob make up his God?

Why Athism? - Beliefnet Forums: "

There's no such thing as external charters from God since it's all made up internally by humans.

This is a strong assertion and needs strong support.

Are you saying that each believer makes up herm own God out of herm own mind? Where does the background information come from? Why is the God each believer makes up nearly identical with the God of everybody else in herm church or synagogue? Frankly, I don't think most believers are intelligent enough to create a God internally that has all the attributes of most modern Gods."

Musical Transcendence

Why Athism? - Beliefnet Forums: There are certain circumstances other than religious groups where a transcendent consciousness may be experienced. On rare occasions as a musician I have felt a resonance with the audience, and as an audience member a resonance with the musician(s) in which I feel I am sharing in the experience of the music in a way that transcends my own limited capability to understand the music. My own background in music is of course part of the greater whole, but only a small part when everything works right."

Collective God.

Why Athism? - Beliefnet Forums:
"I am convinced that a material brain can be part of a greater consciousness composed of other material brains with a similar background of myths, mores, and beliefs. I think this greater consciousness is quite natural, and quite local. The myths especially may contain supernatural beings, but the supernatural components are simply mnemonics and focusing devices for the local group to tune into. I also have no issue with calling this greater consciousness God, with the understanding that God exists naturally, only within the local group, and has no influence, for lack of a better word, outside of that local group. At this stage of my understanding I think the group is small, on the order of a few tens or hundreds of people, but it would not be inconceivable to me that the group could be larger. As an atheist I do not participate in any of these God groups, nor have I seen any advantage to trying to do so. "

Forrest's Last Sermon Again

His Death Postponed, a Minister Repeats His Farewell Sermon - NYTimes.com: "The Rev. Forrest Church gazed out from his pulpit on Sunday and, in a steady voice, delivered what may or may not be his last sermon — for the fifth time."

And may he deliver it many times over. For 30 years my only minister, through the good years, through the tough years of change 20 years ago, when eventually I left New York and my life there with $150 excess baggage mostly my speakers, to start over. He ministered happily by phone, on my occasional return trips to NYC and on line sermons. He was my first Google alert and it has been fun finding comments on his journey from all over, with the occasional Forrest speaking in his Church that Google finds as well.

He early taught me to live my life so that it will be worth dying for, and I have been trying unsuccessfully to emulate his example. His Cathedral with many windows has been my spiritual home since he helped me find it. It has made me a much more tolerant and intelligent atheist, as some of the many windows used by my religious friends have some wondrous light to enjoy.

So once again, many thanks and a virtual hug to my mentor, friend and minister. And thanks to the Times for the hug photo. So typical and all of us will slip right into that dark suit.

Reflections in humanity.

"Find Me" on the internet - Beliefnet Forums: "

Yes....'lost' in the sense of 'because nobody really 'gets me' I'm not sure about myself sufficiently to know where, who and what I am.'Just like a mirror reflects images that allow us to see ourselves, so too other humans reflect our images/thoughts/ideas back to us as they see them; when those reflections align with our perceptions, we feel 'known' and successful.

Finding others to reflect our images/thoughts is one of the hardest things about being atheist. A theist can find that reflection in God if not in the community of herm church. I would find the reflection in an imaginary being unsatisfying, and even a reflection in the community wouldn't be good enough for me. I need a real person, or a once real person like Jefferson, or even an internet real person like many of you here, to provide that reflection of perception that validates our being alive. Thank you, all of you who are providing the reflection for me, I hope I am adequately returning the favor."

Dear American

McCain, you must be joking!!! - Beliefnet Forums: "'Dear American:

I need to ask you to support an urgent secret business relationship with a transfer of funds of great magnitude.

I am Ministry of the Treasury of the Republic of America. My country has had crisis that has caused the need for large transfer of funds of 800 billion dollars US. If you would assist me in this transfer, it would be most profitable to you."

McCain's got policies.

Luckovich

Selecting the Bail Outs

Davies
Can we just ignore the fire on Wall St.?

I am having a Katrina moment

Oliphant
When all about you are blaming it on you....
Notice the shrub in the right center, and Uncle Dick's comment.

As Is Legislation

Ben Sargent
And we all know how well the Patriot Act worked out.