Tell Me, Tell Me.

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Theist wrote:

Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.

You will have to free yourself. 

I could teach you that a Creator of everything that exists has a probability of near zero.  But the miniscule probability will still permit 100% belief. 

I could teach you that everything you know about God is the product of human imaginings.  But I could not teach you that those imaginings were not inspired by God.

I could teach you that everything taught by that little vuvuzela in a fancy dress in an over decorated balcony is a self-serving lie. But I could not teach you those lies are not from God. 

I could teach you that your whole Belief System is useless for living the life you are sure of: the one that started when you were born and will end someday. But I cannot teach you anything at all about what happens after that end.  

I could teach you that the life you are sure of is the only one worth worrying about, and that living it according to the highest standards of social benefit is the only thing that matters no matter what happens when you die.  But I cannot teach you what those highest standards are. 

You will have to teach yourself to be free. 

Some Wrong Answers Better Than Others.

Apr 20, 2015 -- 7:23AM, theist wrote:

Apr 19, 2015 -- 6:14PM, JCarlin wrote:

The a-religious simply suggest that disabuse of religion would eliminate most of the wrong answers to life's questions.

Right.

How’d that work for the Bolsheviks, et al.?

Bolsheviks were a political group not a philosophically anti-religious group.  Religions were seditious hence persecuted along with all the other seditious groups. 

In any event, eliminating wrong answers does not necessarily provide right answers.  Ideologies religious or secular generally provide wrong answers.  I would argue that secular ideologies provide better answers than religious ideologies, but whether or not they are right is a long historical test.

New Atheism

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I suspect the New Atheism is a marginal and almost ignorable part of atheism.  The important parts of atheism are

1. The nominally religious but godless with respect to the traditional Controlling Supernatural Deity.  Traditionally referred to as Deists.  Including the "Two Great Commandment" personal God of Jesus believers.  
2. Spiritual but not religious.  Probably including most pagans. 
3. Humanists of all types:  Secular Humanists, godless UUs and UCC's and humanists.
4. And (lc a) atheists for whom any kind of a God is irrelevant to living and dying. 

Most of these groups are what I call "discovered atheists" that is they found that atheism worked for them and god just became irrelevant to living.  The dying part is more complicated, as many believe in some sort of an afterlife, but gods or Jesus has nothing to do with it.  It is just a natural transition based on how one has chosen to live. 

It will be this group of atheists rather than the "New Atheists" that will shut down the controlling, politically active religious factions. 

Atheists and Social Media

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YouTube  provider

I suggest old atheists here check out social media and other new forms of communication for the younger generation of atheists. They get off their ass and do stuff.

I have been on social media since it began and have seen many movements come and go.  New this and new that like the new Tide make a little bubble in the suds and disappears in the rinse water. 

As for getting off their asses the new generation of social mediaists seems to interpret that as thumbing a tweet or liking a post somewhere.  Even those who do get off their ass and create new media, thank you for doing so, are basically competing for views, likes and shares in a very tiny community. 

Effective use of social media is joining or forming coalitions with people going generally your way and doing what you can to help and perhaps influence where they are going.  As an atheist fighting religious oppression I have always found it more effective to join groups like the Christian Left on Facebook and support liberal Christian groups IRL that are in a position to create change.  Say what you really think about Pope Francis or Bishop Spong but do it among friends.  Support them publicly as they push hard and effectively in a good direction. 

Why I am Not a Christian J'C Version

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I have mentioned that I consider many parts of Christian scripture to be dysfunctional for Christians and society as a whole.  Probably the most misinterpreted and misused chapter, is Romans 1:17 through 2:3.  (The chapter break is artificial). It is obviously crucial to Christian dogma as it establishes the sinful nature of Christians.  

From a marketing (proselytizing) point of view it creates the problem that Christianity provides a solution for: Salvation.  In the question the OP responded to the lives of all (Christians) are wretched, and the only redemption comes after death, (the first death) when some will be chosen for some wonderful continued existence, and others "confounded" for eternity.  (Catholic formulation.) 

In the KJV 17: For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.  -- For those who don't (18-23) 24: Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts in their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves.  1:25-2:3 is a long litany of what God gave them up to.  That is being human.  

I for one, and as I read the Synoptic Gospels Jesus agrees, have no problem with being human.   Jesus preaches to humans, exalting their humanness, with all the issues of being human.   Jesus and I part ways in loving God anyway, even though according to Paul God cursed us with humanness for not having faith.

That, in a nutshell is the problem I have with the Christian faith.  Why would any rational human even consider it?

Why Argue Against Scripture

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Fundy wrote:

Why do posters who do not subscribe to CHRISTIAN scriptures argue against CHRISTIAN scriptures? What possible point can they be making other than that they have nothing better in their sad lives to do...poor wretches with no God in their lives - nothing to look forward to after their demise in the first death. Poor wretches who cannot even read the scriptures they are denying yet put themselves up as opposers to this that that have no knowledge of... Phew!!

  Fair question, wretchedly formulated.  OT on original thread.
 
The main reason we argue against Christian scriptures is your proposed answer.  We have that argument thrown at us based on scripture and are expected to cower and convert.
 
In order:  Our lives are not sad.  Each day is filled with new opportunities to add to our legacy of improving the space we will leave to our intellectual heirs.  Those heirs are mainly friends and relatives, but occasionally we may affect our society as well. 

We are not poor wretches with no God, we are vibrant living beings managing our own lives for the benefit of our society not the glorification of that little vuvuzela in a fancy dress in an over decorated balcony.

We have no need to look forward to some imagined "Big Rock Candy Mountain" after death.  We are aware of and comfortable with the fact that we are mortal and look back on our lives that we are making worth dying for.  (Hat tip to Forrest Church, theist, for that trope.)

We read and understand scripture of many faiths and sects particularly that of the faith dominant in our society primarily because those scriptures have a profound effect on the society of which we are a part.  Before you can love your neighbor you must at least understand the important things in your neighbor's life.  Secondarily there are parts of scripture that we find to be dysfunctional both for our neighbor and for the society.  Therefore we oppose those parts.

The above is a personal statement, the use of the plural is an acknowledgement of many teachers, mentors, and loved ones who made it possible and necessary.

Fundy Atheists

It is impossible to be a fundy atheist, as there is no belief system to follow.  Atheists don't even agree on what sort of existence God doesn't have.  God may be an imaginary thing in the mind of theists, may not exist at all, or be a vague focus of belief.  In any event for an atheist whatever God is it is useless. 

On any behavioral scale atheists can be found anywhere as they are human, but generally they fall closer to the normal regions as they don't have vuvuzelas in fancy dresses in over decorated balconies ranting at them constantly that they are worthless sinners.  Deconverted theists, especially deconverted Christians, may retain some of this negative self image, a childhood of self-loathing is not easily forgotten, but even the deconverts have managed to lose most of the adverse behavioral effects.

Unlike theists, especially Christians, atheists don't need someone to tell us how to behave, we generally take the day we are given and "rejoice and be glad in it" per Forrest Church, and make it great without help.   

Are Irrational Emotional Coping Mechanisms Necessary?

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That is just an admission that god is an irrational emotional coping mechanism.

Yep.  That is exactly what God is.  Nonetheless, humans are hard wired to employ irrational emotional coping mechanisms for irrational situations.  Rationality does not always have solutions to all problems, especially human emotional issues.  

Please explain the rational steps to deal with the following:  A long term apparently devoted partner and parent of one's children, finds it necessary to go live with herm same sex lover in a different community.  No emotional reactions permitted.  Simply provide rational steps to resolve the issue. 

Fundamentalist Atheists.

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There are two types of atheists that seem to acquire the label fundamentalist. 
One type insists that insists that to be an atheist one must refuse to accept a supernatural god in any way, shape, or form.  No nuance permitted.  A-theist: No god. No discussion.  

The other type insists that any type of religious teaching is abuse. 

Both types are relatively rare, but like all fundies are certain that they are right and are not shy about promoting their cause. Preaching to their choir and accepting the flak from those they are preaching against is one of the few ways to acquire fame and fortune as an atheist. 

Most atheists don't have congregations or PACs for support as most atheists are too busy quietly making a difference for their family and friends by competing in a religion dominated world.  In this sense they have a common cause with the quiet feminists, and other minorities who simply are so competent that they can succeed without connections.  As some woman who broke the glass wall into a male dominated profession noted, in order to succeed in this business you have to be twice as good as the average (white) male.  Fortunately this is not difficult.  Atheists are generally better educated, more flexible and rational in their thought processes, and less dependent on networking.  As a result if competence is a virtue and it usually is they can usually make a difference.  Also like religious minority groups they tend to seek out professions where competence is both measurable and rewarded.  STEM, arts, academia, medicine, and finance.  

Since they usually do well in these important professions, it is yet another reason they are hated.

More on Living and Dying

A well integrated atheist has a different view of death.  It is a natural result of not being able any longer to continue working on one's legacy which is an atheist's reason for living. There is no fear of consequences, they have already happened.  At any point at need I can and do remember the valuable life lessons taught me by my atheist predecessors which I have passed on to their and my successors.  When I have nothing more to pass on due to pain or infirmity, there is no reason to want to continue.   As a well remembered member of the DA community, Charles Fiterman/Gaius_Caesar, expressed it so well I ask daily what am I doing with my time that justifies the pain and expense and inconvienience to others of going on. When the answer becomes bad enough I will do the right thing.  Not surprisingly he was working on his legacy up until the right thing was necessary.

Live a Life Worth Dying For.

Good Bible quotes for Atheists

Ecclesiastes 9 -
5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.

Good old Ecclesiastes: Probably the first atheist. How he got into the Bible is still one of the great mysteries of life.   

I would, as an atheist, modify 9:5 ... they have no reward but the memory of them in those they have affected. 

Forrest Church is remembered and probably will be long remembered for, among many other things, "Live a life worth dying for."  Even special animals can live on if only as an abstract in fiction:  Balto the sled dog IRL and Lassie representing all working/companion dogs. 

Bible Studies.

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I am qualified to evaluate expertise in biblical studies since I’m a Russian Orthodox seminary graduate. Knowledge of theology appears limited to that of modern evangelical Protestantism. 

I might suggest that a seminary graduate is hardly an impartial evaluator of Biblical analysis.  I suspect you would not have graduated if you didn't have a strong theological bias toward the Russian Orthodox interpretation of Scripture. 

The atheists here have a sophisticated and reasoned interpretation of the stories in the Bible regardless of our milk traditions if only to deal with the incessant proselytization we endure daily.  Certainly modern evangelical Protestantism is the most prevalent.  Other traditions are well represented as well as we try to avoid Fundagelicals when possible. Our associates are well distributed among the other Western Denominations who are not reticent about telling us why we should join them at church. 

As noted I have 8 Bibles on my shelf beside me, and have read all 8 cover to cover at some point in my life.  (Well, I skipped the begats in some of them, but I bet I have read more begats than most Christians.) When interpreting any specific passage I not only compare the eight I am familiar with, but the online comparisons as well. I am also familiar with the belief based interpretations of many of the Western traditions, including Dispensationalism,  (unfortunately) evangelical Protestantism, Catholicism, mainstream Protestantism, Judiasm, UUC and theistic UU.  The last two being the most familiar as they are the churches of choice "when the spirit moves me."

Beliefs, Bias, and Atheism

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Please clarify. Holding a bias in favor of their own positions is a common human trait. Are you claiming that the atheists in this group are extraordinary in their capacity to be fair and objective?

It is commonly recognized that biases are associated with belief.  See Shermer among many others. Scientists are trained to recognize and compensate for biases, especially belief based biases,  and do so relatively well due to the threat of peer review either formal or informal.

Generally atheists reject beliefs in anything, preferring a search for valid knowledge without belief biases.  In addition atheists generally do not generally have positions to support.  As an example I have found that god beliefs are not useful and frequently dysfunctional.  However, if someone would show me a useful god belief, I might consider using it, although it is unlikely that I would adopt it.  I find the panentheistic belief a useful and functional worldview to study and learn from.  However, I need no deity to focus my study. I do very well with the wonder and awesomeness of the world I live on and the Universe which contains it. One might say I take my spirituality unadulterated by imaginary intermediaries.  

Why I Live.

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Why do you desire to accomplish well your endeavors? Are you pleased with your creations / your accomplishments?  - 
iamachildofhis

Since they are in fact the meaning of life or at least mine, I had better accomplish my endeavors well, as they are how I affect others in my community, and how I will be remembered by them.  Overall I am quite pleased with my creations and accomplishments.  I chose most of them carefully as being beneficial to my community, and molded and shaped them to the best of my ability to
continue in the paths I set them on. Sooner or later I will die, leaving to my community my creations, my accomplishments, and "This valuable and useful space which I have occupied temporarily"  John Dobbs, atheist, from Legacy.  

TRUTH™ Means that Others are Wrong.

Beliefnet
The theist concern for the TRUTH^TM is a critical difference that causes many problems.  If you have the TRUTH^TM then by definition anything that does not comply with that TRUTH^TM is necessarily inferior and/or wrong.  You are still under the delusion that an atheist or even a rational theist that thinks differently from you has a wrong belief, and that therefore considers their belief to be the TRUTH^TM and all other beliefs inferior and/or wrong.
 
For most atheists and some rational theists this is simply not the case.  A rational approach to living merely says this paradigm works for me, and I will therefore follow this path.  Others are not necessarily wrong or inferior, they are just on a different path to a common goal, that is getting along with all people and things in a responsible way. 
 
As long as belief in God is subservient to getting along with others in a responsible way, I have no issue with that belief.  But if that belief is that God takes precedence over others and that those others are wrong and/or inferior, then we have a major problem.  It is those and only those theists that don't give the benefit of the doubt that are a problem for their fellows, theist or not.  Unfortunately, those theists are all too common and pose a real threat to atheists, and rational theists, and non-theistic believers in other truths.  

Meaning in a Finite Life

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My finite life is meaningful only if I learn all I can about how to make my world a more beautiful and benign space for all in it. I believe nothing as beliefs are incompatible with that learning.  The mind is configured to protect beliefs, and the only counter is to root out the beliefs, be aware of them and be ready to sprinkle a little salt on them as needed. 

But learning is useless unless I practice and teach what I have learned so that others can help while I am alive and carry on after I am no longer alive.  I can still teach after I am no longer alive either directly through stories that are remembered by others, or by the actions of others I have taught well.  It is quite comforting to know that much of what I have learned is from people and things that are no longer living.  

My world, as am I, is finite. It consists of everything that is affected by my actions or teachings.  I am comfortable with this.  There are many who because of truth or beliefs live in worlds (societies) that I cannot affect. I am not bothered by this.  They go their way I go mine.  The divide if any is created by their truth and beliefs which do not allow them to respond to the learning of my ERSSG.  It may be that they are right and we are wrong, but evolution selects strongly for flexible learning. I will bet my life on that.     

Atheists vs Religion, not God

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I see the big issue not as atheism vs. God, but atheism vs. religion.  Atheists are in a unique position to separate the two and help people focus on the evils of religion.  Cede them their God(s) they aren't going to give up Big Daddy, but help them see that just because the religion claims God, believers don't have to agree. 

There are two big religious issues that are in the process of changing, but must change from within.  The first is the authoritarian tradition in religions.  God, the hierarchy, the pastors must be obeyed in every way, and the associated transfer of this authority to secular powers.   The second is the incompatibility of faith and learning, especially learning for all people.  Religions know that learning destroys faith and therefore do all they can to impede learning.  

About all an atheist can do to help is to show that learning has intrinsic value and promote it always,  the internet is a powerful tool for this, and to the extent possible prevent politico/religious interference in the learning process. 

As for the authoritarian issue, I suspect atheists can usefully abandon their own authoritarian issues, and recognize and work with those religious groups that are trying to be free.  I don't care if they believe in God or not, as long as they are challenging their faith traditions of authority.  There are many Christians who are going back to the Synoptics and Jesus' personal view of God and Jesus' concern for his neighbors, all of them.  I view them as fellow travelers on the anti-religion path, and encourage them and respect their God beliefs.  As many here know I promote the Jefferson Bible to all and sundry believers and others for its basic humanism.  They can keep their God intact, and focus on the message of Jesus, not as God but as God's exemplar on earth.  It is a powerful anti-religion book, which is why I am sure Jefferson extracted it from Religion's Bible as an important part of his presidency. 

The Keys to Heaven

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Do you ever wish there was a jesus, a god, a day when all that is wrong will be made right? Do you wish there was a place where children go after they leave this place in terror to a place where they can play and smile and have no knowledge of the terror we witnessed them go through.    matica

Thanks for your thoughts, by choosing this forum I assume you are not looking for confirmation but discussion. 

Very early in my life I came to understand that God, or Jesus, or whoever holds the keys to heaven is a cop out to avoid dealing with the real issues of the world.  If you try to filter out the real Jesus from the crap taught by Christianity you find a single person working with the poor and powerless to give them help in the world they live in.  Being a responsible person does not mean personally changing the world, even Jesus didn't do that, but making as much difference in the lives of others, the children especially, to release their potential is much more important than wishing God will take care of it.   Available evidence is nil that he will either in this life or the next.  

Note that Jesus did release the potential of a few fishermen, who were able to keep his ministry alive to produce the Gospels.

I am an older person, many of my important relatives who shaped my life are no longer alive.  I do not wish they are in a better place, I do however remember how they made my valuable and useful space a better and more beautiful place to be.  I expect to continue building on their Legacy until the time comes when I will leave that valuable and useful space to those who follow.  In the mean time I will continue to tell their stories that were important to me in the hope they those stories will be helpful to others as well.  I admit to a bias for only the good stories, as those make the world a little better than it was before.

Atheist Sexual Morality

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One of the reasons to side with the atheists in matters of sexual morality is that the atheist community is far superior to at least the Christian community in dealing with the modern fact, I use that term advisedly, that it is no longer the norm even among Christians for women to be married soon after puberty "To cleave only unto the husband" and spend her life barefoot and pregnant.  Women and men tend to seek partners with similar educational and vocational interests, which frequently means deferring marriage until mid 20's or later.  Perhaps a bit younger for women. 

Marriage or parenting vows, take your pick, are generally taken after considerable thought with little impetus from sex.  Indeed sexual compatibility is generally well proven by the time of parenting vows.  And the pair bond is well established usually through contraceptive monogamous sex long before the vow is taken and the contra lost.  The moral imperative is that the parenting vows are the binding ones and generally are anticipated to last through adulthood of the planned children.  No instant gratification or fashion involved.  It is a well thought out moral commitment. 

OK.  That takes care of the grown ups.  What about the horny teens? The Our Whole Lives program, a joint venture between UU and UCC, recognizes the fact that at an early age children and young adults will experiment with sexual activities.  OWL does not "Just say NO," that is a proven path to unwed parenthood.  Please note there are two unwed parents for every child born out of wedlock.  A much better moral standard is to understand that sex happens and that it is critical that when it does both partners are responsible, willing, and ready for it.  The common question "Your condom or mine?" is a simple way of insuring this moral standard.  Using this moral standard a sex act is no more (or less) significant than dirty dancing or if you prefer a formal Pas de Deux. 

Atheist Living

Beliefnet
It is almost impossible to not be moral and compassionate if you are an atheist as there is no alternative.  You have no choice but to do the very best you can for the expanding circle of people that you consider your chosen society.  It isn't so much having an apple fall on your head, we can't always be so lucky or so smart, but we do what we can to make it probable that those that are can take advantage of it.  Education, critical thinking, and creative attitudes can all be encouraged, and certainly exploring top level thinking like the existentialists is important to being able to take advantage of those opportunities.