Why I Live.

beliefnet

Why do you desire to accomplish well your endeavors? Are you pleased with your creations / your accomplishments?  - 
iamachildofhis

Since they are in fact the meaning of life or at least mine, I had better accomplish my endeavors well, as they are how I affect others in my community, and how I will be remembered by them.  Overall I am quite pleased with my creations and accomplishments.  I chose most of them carefully as being beneficial to my community, and molded and shaped them to the best of my ability to
continue in the paths I set them on. Sooner or later I will die, leaving to my community my creations, my accomplishments, and "This valuable and useful space which I have occupied temporarily"  John Dobbs, atheist, from Legacy.  

More on Historical Jesus

beliefnet
A rational analysis of the available data admittedly limited to the Gospels and some recently discovered Gnostic writings, shows that the Nazarene cults centered on Jesus were popular enough that a century after his death they were documented by literate followers of the major cults centered on the male disciples.  A year or so after his death the cults were important enough that Saul was sent out by the Romans (Jews?) to suppress them.  After his famous incident on the road to Damascus, Paul found it necessary to promote the leader of these cults to his Christ, either as a political move to co-opt the cults, or as a cynical move to debase the populist leader to a conventional God.  In either case it worked and Christ became conflated with Jesus as "Jesus Christ."    In any event it was necessary to canonize the Gospels when Christianity became the official religion of the Empire.  Permitting a clandestine few to retain the populist, humanist ideals of Jesus with the Holy Bible as their writ albeit a la Jefferson a whole bunch of the NT was ignored.  The Enlightenment may be the flowering of these clandestine cults.  The parallels between the populist, humanist teachings of Jesus and the Enlightenment are apparent to all who wish to look with an open mind.  

beliefnet

A few fictional stories about Jesus mainly Passion and birth related became incorporated in Paul's Christianity, but that says nothing about whether or not there was a real Jesus that preached in the early first century.  The Passion fiction was the reason the synoptic gospels were included in the canon, but the inclusion of the earlier stories in the Synoptics suggests that even in the 4th century the preacher was a significant historical figure.  While Christianity was the main Jesus cult in the 4th century there were others that for political reasons had to be wrapped into the package.

I find it reasonable that there are two completely different Jesus histories in the first century.  The fictional God man of Christianity, and the radical hippie who created the groupies that made the God man fiction necessary.

Social Reality

beliefnet

I think of morality as a socially generated reality.  It is not coexistent with physical or science reality as there is no way to measure it directly. It becomes real over time with a steep learning curve in childhood, and eventually becomes internalized as conscience. 

Like all realities it can change as new information is internalized, but by adulthood new information is strongly blocked by the belief system in the brain.   There are several other socially generated realities, religion and politics are the most prominent, and status of other humans seems to be another social reality, which is in my view independent of morality.  Morality deals only with "My people" whatever that means to the particular individual.

All socially generated realities are real only for the individual although within a small tight social group there may be many commonalities. 

Understanding social reality may be a key to dealing with others who may have a completely different reality.  Fundies as an example inhabit a reality that may even exclude physical science as real.  Pretending that they are deluded only complicates the issue of dealing with them rationally.  Presenting facts that conflict with social realities as fact is ineffective in dealing with the social reality of the fact denier.      

Socially Responsible Humanism

Thad Yep, J'Carlin. That's my sense of "prick", too. And I reiterate: unfortunately, any prick can be a father, too. "Father" is not some noble vocation, unfortunately, and neither is "parent". In the U.S. today, the terms seem to be increasingly confused with "unpaid juvie officer". ...
 
Thad J'Carlin, you're doing a lot of generalizing there and in my experience, that sort of thing doesn't work very well. "Humanism" is also a grand phrase that's devoid of any practical meaning. What does one do if one is a humanist? What does treat everyone as if they had inherent worth really mean, in practice?

As my virtual friend Stream Angel well knows, I believe that it's quite easy to make these great sweeping statements about justice and equality and human worth and what not. What I think is difficult is to actually boil those down into concrete practices.

It's all well and grand to talk about "good parenting", for example, but what does that really mean in terms of practices? Some people will tell you a good parent needs to swat their kid's rear end occasionally. Others are horrified by the very idea and feel no compulsion against dropping a dime on a parent who'd do that.

Is it "good parenting", for example, to take a child to a brothel? Be careful: the question is a hell of a lot more tricky than you might expect.

 I may be generalizing, admittedly a harder row to hoe, but cherry picking specific examples, what we call in Bible arguments prooftexting, is really worthless in any argument.  For any shit you sling on the wall I can find different shit to cover it up.  The only result is a shitty wall.  
 
 The takeaway is that it is all solved by the principles of humanism (lc h) that is all people are humans.  Not men, not women, not children, not Christians, not Jews, not [whatever.]  Simply humans. Not all the same humans certainly, humans are all different, but if you put "human" before the [whatever] it really does change the way you think about and look at people.

 If it is a human body builder does it really make a difference which costume the human is wearing?

If it is a human dancer does it really make a difference which costume the human is wearing?

If it is a human CEO does it really make a difference which costume the human is wearing?

If it is a human street person does it really make a difference which costume the human is wearing?

or for more difficult cases 

If it is a human bigot does it really make a difference which -ism the human is wearing?

If it is a human criminal does it really make a difference which suit the human is wearing?

 Humanism does not mean noble or even not a prick.  But the assumption of inherent worth and dignity does change the way you think even of a prick.  Maybe a victim of bad parenting, or the wrong associations while an adolescent, or any of a host of factors.  Hesh is still a prick, a crippled human, but a human nonetheless.  

 Please note.  I am saying nothing about what a humanist society will do to protect itself from crippled humans.  It must do so.  Even humanist societies remove threats, but even threat removal must recognize the dignity and humanness of the threat. The current US paradigm of throwing the threat in a for-profit prison benefits no one as "prisoners" are by definition not human.  The Norwegian model of assuming the person temporarily removed from society is not only human but is a potentially good citizen if properly educated in the mores of the society.   

 Parenting is a different issue.  But the same principles apply.  A parent, that is a person or persons who chooses to accept a child into their family, also accepts the societal obligation to nurture and socialize the child to become a responsible human adult in the society.  The society will provide resources to help, but ultimately it is the responsibility of those who choose to parent to choose the most useful resources to supplement their nurturing guidance.  This is a joint effort of the parents and the society but parents have some choice in the society they wish to associate with, and even within the society they choose may make choices to emphasize certain mores vs others. 



 

 

TRUTH™ Means that Others are Wrong.

Beliefnet
The theist concern for the TRUTH^TM is a critical difference that causes many problems.  If you have the TRUTH^TM then by definition anything that does not comply with that TRUTH^TM is necessarily inferior and/or wrong.  You are still under the delusion that an atheist or even a rational theist that thinks differently from you has a wrong belief, and that therefore considers their belief to be the TRUTH^TM and all other beliefs inferior and/or wrong.
 
For most atheists and some rational theists this is simply not the case.  A rational approach to living merely says this paradigm works for me, and I will therefore follow this path.  Others are not necessarily wrong or inferior, they are just on a different path to a common goal, that is getting along with all people and things in a responsible way. 
 
As long as belief in God is subservient to getting along with others in a responsible way, I have no issue with that belief.  But if that belief is that God takes precedence over others and that those others are wrong and/or inferior, then we have a major problem.  It is those and only those theists that don't give the benefit of the doubt that are a problem for their fellows, theist or not.  Unfortunately, those theists are all too common and pose a real threat to atheists, and rational theists, and non-theistic believers in other truths.  

Is is sex or sexism that sells?

Jonathan Korman

“Everyone says sex sells, but actually sexism sells. There’s a difference.” -@femfreq (via @mmjordahl)

Not so. If the attractive and provocative model pitching the oversize SUV convinces the buyer of either gender that the SUV will compensate for lack of the necessaries for attractiveness where is the sexism. Pure sex sell. Also, is Yuja Wang being sexist by selling her music by dressing appropriately for a star of her age? It sure makes the reviewers drool all over their copy, who is sexist here?

Jonathan Korman  The process is sexist. It doesn't need to be located in any individual.

A process cannot be sexist. It is the individual reaction only. Dressing appropriately for the job is not sexist. Consider a CEO in a power tie or scarf and shoulder pads, at the head of the table. Is hesh being sexist? Using sex to sell, or what?

This is the same argument that a runner in a sports bra/top and tight shorts is asking to be raped. It doesn't fly.

More later... 11/? 

Homophobia

Courtesy The Other 98% facebook. 10/14/13
I hate the word
Homophobia.
It isn't a phobia.
You're not afraid.
You're an Asshole.

Yesterday is up. No, it is East.

http://edge.org/conversation/how-does-our-language-shape-the-way-we-think

What we have learned is that people who speak different languages do indeed think differently and that even flukes of grammar can profoundly affect how we see the world. Language is a uniquely human gift, central to our experience of being human. Appreciating its role in constructing our mental lives brings us one step closer to understanding the very nature of humanity.

Where yesterday is depends on your native language in the title Mandarin and Kuuk Thaayorre (aboriginal Australian) respectively.  I don't know about you but as an English speaker it is behind me.

If you describe a key or a bridge in English, the words you choose have the characteristics of the gender of the word in your native language if that native language is gendered.

A sentence in Japanese where many things seem to me to be personalized I remember from my capital budgeting days is "The air conditioner for our office wants to leak, we are not permitted to repair it, but the building will close its eyes if we do so."

A fascinating article. Linked to study.  Well worth the time. 

Godless Evolution in a Nutshell

beliefnet
As the universe evolved heavy elements were created in hot massive stars that exploded seeding the universe with heavier elements that could react as elements do because of energy considerations to form compounds.   Some of the lighter elements, carbon, oxygen, and nitrogen, commonly reacted with hydrogen to form methane, ammonia and carboxylic acid, which in turn reacted to form amino acids the building blocks of life.  As stars and planets formed out of dust clouds in space those amino acids were distilled onto planets that were suitable in distance and energy flux to contain liquid water. Eventually life formed on such planets.  Hardly something from nothing.  But no creator necessary, simply physics, chemistry and energy.
 
As life evolved it became necessary for survival to sense and react to the environment in which life existed, as finding nutrients and avoiding being one, was necessary for survival and reproduction.  Those organisms that were good at sensing and reacting to the environment reproduced and thrived until something that sensed and reacted better came along and became locally dominant.  Repeat, repeat, repeat, until part of the package needed for survival was in addition to experiencing and doing, thinking, planning, and feeling were added to the mix.  In particular feeling good about the opposite sex to form pair bonds to facilitate getting infants to be reproducing adults.  Thinking and planning are added relatively early in evolution as all mammals and birds appear to do so.  

Those animals that have evolved to assist humans in guarding, herding, rodent control and other needed functions around settlements have learned to sense human feelings of happiness, joy, wonder, and do things that create them in order to survive in the presence of humans.  See Facebook threads of cute animals doing things to please humans.  

Spirituality is Ordinary Sensory Input.

Beliefnet

Okay, so we feel something unusual, overwhelming even. How can we be certain, as F1fan suggests, it's not simply imagination or tricks of perception due to our misinterpreting quite ordinary sensory input? DotNotInOz

It is. 

It is a purely natural response of the human mind to focus all of our attention on some unusual but ordinary sensory input to determine if it is a threat or or just something memorable.  Tennyson's poem is just a word salad.  A word salad like any other word salad but with an unusual "dressing" that tastes funny.  Is it poison like the word salad

"And God spake all these words, saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (Exodus 20:1-3)"

or something profound that a reasoning human being should consider a life changing event? 

It is always your choice.  It is even your choice to dismiss it as imagination or misinterpretation.  Or something that was "inspired by God" and therefore a poison to run away from.  That "God hole" in your mind is a precipice to Hell.  Avoid it all all costs.  But it is also that scary view from the rim of the Grand Canyon, or the brow of Half Dome.  Never go there, your life might be changed forever.  

But as I said in a different context "I feel sorry for you."

Beliefnet

 iamachildofhis wrote:

 JCarlin wrote:

 iamachildofhis wrote:

iama:  We know that "all die."

JCarlin: End of story.  Get used to it.

iama:  You have evidence?

Yep.  In a long lifetime with many friends of all ages, I have been to many funerals, and other rituals associated with the end of life.  In many the celebrant said nice things about the deceased being "with God" and that we should be happy that their alloted life of woe and sin is over, including the devoted wife and mother of a 2 year old child I was godfather for.  In 100% of the deaths, the living had no further contact with the deceased, except for memories of the good times when the deceased played, sang, enlightened, and otherwise brought joy to our lives.  It didn't matter what faith they were, real memories, were the only contact anyone had.  Ever. 

I was at a Catholic Requiem Mass recently where the celebrant made rude comments in the homily about celebrations of the lives of the deceased, implying that those lives were worthless, and that the only important thing was that the deceased was happy in heaven or would be at some point.  But all those still living wanted to talk about was the influence the deceased had on their lives and how they would miss it now that (whisper it) the deceased was with God.  

In all the funerals, and celebrations of life, I have been to, not even once has the deceased been present in the moment even lying in the casket, to share the stories, the songs, and all that made their life worth living.  Nor has any been back since except in memory to report on their experiences with God, or the worms, or even the mingling of the material remains with a beautiful sacred place for them. 

No matter really, the living do it for them and keep the meaning of that sacred place alive for them.   Part of the cremains of my sister are near the grave of her beloved Chopin, and even the picture of her son placing them can evoke the many times she shared Chopin and others with us on whatever piano was available.  Actually, not even a picture is necessary, any thoughts of her always included either her sharing music or her kitchen with all who loved her for both and the wisdom and love that were a part of either sharing. 

Belief, Truth, Reality, and Learning

beliefnet

I believe nothing as beliefs are incompatible with that learning. The mind is configured to protect beliefs, and the only counter is to root out the beliefs, be aware of them and be ready to sprinkle a little salt on them as needed.

What do you mean here? Of course you believe things about reality. Are you just saying you are open to changing your currently tentatively held beliefs?

 Thetanager

I define "belief" as an emotionally accepted truth that needs no verification.  "God exists" is a belief.  "Fox News is fair and balanced" is a belief.  According to noted skeptic Michael Shermer in The Believing Brain beliefs come first and are defended later.   He further argues with strong scientific backing that information that tends to weaken or refute the belief is not even processed by the brain.  "Fox News is BS" is not even heard by a believer in Fox News. The "La, la, la, I can't hear you" is not figurative according to Shermer, it is a true statement.
I don't confuse "belief" with "true" in regard to statements or "real" in regard to the material world.  Both "true" and "real" are ultimately verifiable by independent means.  "You are 33" is a statement that I tentatively accept as true, but if someone else said it is false, we could resolve the dispute factually with documentation.  "The chair is real" can be verified by sitting on it.  You need not believe the chair is real.  If you were concerned you would sit tentatively and if it seemed substantial possibly rock on it to verify that it is functional as a chair.   

Meaning in a Finite Life

Beliefnet

My finite life is meaningful only if I learn all I can about how to make my world a more beautiful and benign space for all in it. I believe nothing as beliefs are incompatible with that learning.  The mind is configured to protect beliefs, and the only counter is to root out the beliefs, be aware of them and be ready to sprinkle a little salt on them as needed. 

But learning is useless unless I practice and teach what I have learned so that others can help while I am alive and carry on after I am no longer alive.  I can still teach after I am no longer alive either directly through stories that are remembered by others, or by the actions of others I have taught well.  It is quite comforting to know that much of what I have learned is from people and things that are no longer living.  

My world, as am I, is finite. It consists of everything that is affected by my actions or teachings.  I am comfortable with this.  There are many who because of truth or beliefs live in worlds (societies) that I cannot affect. I am not bothered by this.  They go their way I go mine.  The divide if any is created by their truth and beliefs which do not allow them to respond to the learning of my ERSSG.  It may be that they are right and we are wrong, but evolution selects strongly for flexible learning. I will bet my life on that.     

This Too Shall Pass

From Miniver Cheevy

Winning does not tempt that man.
This is how he grows: by being defeated, decisively,
by constantly greater beings.

Rainer Maria Rilke

On Vacation

For those who noticed my inattention for the past week, I was traveling with a good childhood friend of my son to Joseph, Oregon to see son and grandson play a three day gig that packed the house with Hard Rockers or as they say Hard Wrockrs each day. An excellent excuse for a wonderful vacation in a spectacularly beautiful area. Highly recommended.  I will probably repeat next year for Chief Joseph Days.  Hope to see you there! I don't do Rodeos, but the energy in the town is contagious.  And those rodeo people know how to dance. There were probably more people in the Stubborn Mule than the official population of the town.   

A long but interesting drive with interesting people.  Some long wanders during the day in beautiful wilderness areas.  Good food with friends and family.  My definition of an excellent vacation. 

For those that are interested go to Homewreckr follow their Facebook link in a few days to give the photo elf time to document the event and enjoy.  

On Monogamy.

Ebon wrote on beliefnet:

It's especially a pointless question for humans because, unlike any other species, we have learned to decouple sexuality and fertility. In prehistoric times, it was in our biological interest for a child's parents to be committed to one another to ensure the survival of the child to adulthood and thereby, the continuation of the genes. In fact, the extended family was even better (and was, historically, the most common form of childrearing) for exactly the same reason.

But that's fairly irrelevent to us now. Since we have largely divorced sex from fertility, monogamy now becomes simply one option among many. For some people, monogamy comes naturally.

Interesting point.  But the term "monogamy" is linked not to sexual activity but child raising.  For the non-breeders, to use a gender neutral term, it seems to make little difference to the society what form of sexual expression is chosen. 

However, for those who chose to accept responsibility for children whether in the usual way or by adoption, a stable family commonly reinforced by sexual bonding is an important value for society to reinforce.  Unfortunately both civil and religious mores are far behind the curve on this critical issue. 

I would like to see "marriage" as permission for sex completely thrown out of both civil and religious laws.  The state would create family unions to protect those who choose to form families for the purpose of raising children.  Religions might want to restrict "marriage" to those couples with a family union license from the state.  These unions would be structured to protect the family unity with a bias toward protecting the children in the event of a separation of the adults in the union. 

Social units not involving children can be handled better via contractual arrangements, pre-nups, visitation rights, wills, etc.  I doubt that religions would want to be involved in blessing such arrangements.  

Atheists vs Religion, not God

beliefnet
I see the big issue not as atheism vs. God, but atheism vs. religion.  Atheists are in a unique position to separate the two and help people focus on the evils of religion.  Cede them their God(s) they aren't going to give up Big Daddy, but help them see that just because the religion claims God, believers don't have to agree. 

There are two big religious issues that are in the process of changing, but must change from within.  The first is the authoritarian tradition in religions.  God, the hierarchy, the pastors must be obeyed in every way, and the associated transfer of this authority to secular powers.   The second is the incompatibility of faith and learning, especially learning for all people.  Religions know that learning destroys faith and therefore do all they can to impede learning.  

About all an atheist can do to help is to show that learning has intrinsic value and promote it always,  the internet is a powerful tool for this, and to the extent possible prevent politico/religious interference in the learning process. 

As for the authoritarian issue, I suspect atheists can usefully abandon their own authoritarian issues, and recognize and work with those religious groups that are trying to be free.  I don't care if they believe in God or not, as long as they are challenging their faith traditions of authority.  There are many Christians who are going back to the Synoptics and Jesus' personal view of God and Jesus' concern for his neighbors, all of them.  I view them as fellow travelers on the anti-religion path, and encourage them and respect their God beliefs.  As many here know I promote the Jefferson Bible to all and sundry believers and others for its basic humanism.  They can keep their God intact, and focus on the message of Jesus, not as God but as God's exemplar on earth.  It is a powerful anti-religion book, which is why I am sure Jefferson extracted it from Religion's Bible as an important part of his presidency. 

The Purse-Seine

beliefnet May 12, 2013 -- 12:50AM

This is how I see it:

Like music is the result of the various interactions of the instruments of an orchestra, the mind is the result of the interactions of the various parts of the brain.

And since a brain (as in the actual brain matter) is as  different from one person to another as a face is, each mind plays to its own tune.  Truman47

OK as far as it goes.  But if each mind plays to its own tune as we see currently in the US "Cultures decay and life's end is death." Robinson Jeffers The Purse-Seine 1937!

Wishing for God

Beliefnet

Do you ever wish there was a jesus, a god, a day when all that is wrong will be made right? Do you wish there was a place where children go after they leave this place in terror to a place where they can play and smile and have no knowledge of the terror we witnessed them go through.

matica

Very early in my life I came to understand that God, or Jesus, or whoever holds the keys to heaven is a cop out to avoid dealing with the real issues of the world.  If you try to filter out the real Jesus from the crap taught by Christianity you find a single person working with the poor and powerless to give them help in the world they live in.  Being a responsible person does not mean personally changing the world, even Jesus didn't do that, but making as much difference in the lives of others, the children especially, to release their potential is much more important than wishing God will take care of it.   Available evidence is nil that he will either in this life or the next.  

Note that Jesus did release the potential of a few fishermen, who were able to keep his ministry alive to produce the Gospels.

I am an older person, many of my important relatives who shaped my life are no longer alive.  I do not wish they are in a better place, I do however remember how they made my valuable and useful space a better and more beautiful place to be.  I expect to continue building on their Legacy until the time comes when I will leave that valuable and useful space to those who follow.  In the mean time I will continue to tell their stories that were important to me in the hope they those stories will be helpful to others as well.  I admit to a bias for only the good stories, as those make the world a little better than it was before.

Two Degrees of ERSSG.

In Jonathan's Salon the other night we were discussing the apparent fact that in the ERSSG in New York, SF Bay Area, Austin and LA there always seems to be a link no more than one person removed from everyone else.  The link may be mostly electronic, in the sense of someone on whose blog or facebook thread one feels free to post, and expects a reasonable comment.  But the how do you know? question has at most two links between. 

Prof Liberty

Pat Oliphant on Immigration

Is Science Math?

beliefnet

I think you're conflating theory with support/evidence FOR the theory. The Theory of Plate Techtonics, for example, merely claims the existence and general behavior of tectonic plates. It does NOT specify the trajectory or velocity of these plates. Of course evidence FOR the Theory will almost certainly contain such data. But that doesn't mean that the Theory itself is mathematical, nor unscientific. The Theory is the conceptual skeleton to which the quantitative data "muscles" are attached. And science necessarily includes both: the conceptual AND the quantitative. If it did not it would be pure math, not science. Without that conceptual backbone, all the data would be devoid of meaning or value. oncomintrain

One of the best and certainly most succinct discussion of the relationship of science and math I have read. Congrats OCT.

In other words without math no science, but without science math is an intellectual exercise with no meaning.  

How to Get Laid in a Society of Empowered Women

You don't.

There is no dearth of sex in the society, they like sex as much as the next woman.  But due to a very busy schedule time effectiveness means that the woman needs a reliable circle of men frequently only one available on short notice for an evening of pleasurable activities leading to sex.  This implies a relationship well established to ensure that the evening will well spent, and the sex a reward for both partners.  Yep.  That nasty relationship word again.  One must respect the choices the EW has made and fit into the range of interests other than sex to make that evening enjoyable.  Even in hot social environments of conventions one can expect several hours or even days of common enjoyable activities, before the evening that includes sex.   

The Keys to Heaven

beliefnet

Do you ever wish there was a jesus, a god, a day when all that is wrong will be made right? Do you wish there was a place where children go after they leave this place in terror to a place where they can play and smile and have no knowledge of the terror we witnessed them go through.    matica

Thanks for your thoughts, by choosing this forum I assume you are not looking for confirmation but discussion. 

Very early in my life I came to understand that God, or Jesus, or whoever holds the keys to heaven is a cop out to avoid dealing with the real issues of the world.  If you try to filter out the real Jesus from the crap taught by Christianity you find a single person working with the poor and powerless to give them help in the world they live in.  Being a responsible person does not mean personally changing the world, even Jesus didn't do that, but making as much difference in the lives of others, the children especially, to release their potential is much more important than wishing God will take care of it.   Available evidence is nil that he will either in this life or the next.  

Note that Jesus did release the potential of a few fishermen, who were able to keep his ministry alive to produce the Gospels.

I am an older person, many of my important relatives who shaped my life are no longer alive.  I do not wish they are in a better place, I do however remember how they made my valuable and useful space a better and more beautiful place to be.  I expect to continue building on their Legacy until the time comes when I will leave that valuable and useful space to those who follow.  In the mean time I will continue to tell their stories that were important to me in the hope they those stories will be helpful to others as well.  I admit to a bias for only the good stories, as those make the world a little better than it was before.