The Hole in the Religious Donut

I have been free all my life.  I don't really care what, if anything, my friends believe or even my enemies.  When their church is putting on a good show I will go and enjoy it with them and put the price of a comparable show ticket in the plate. 

I even enjoy a good religious argument.  I don't try to show them they are wrong but I am curious about why they are wrong.  Knowing how and why they are wrong helps me help me help them deal with the crap God throws at them (their BS) usually by throwing more crap at them that makes them feel better about God's crap.  I frequently use art and music which makes the crap palatable and sometimes beautiful.  I have to admit that the RCC sure knows how to sugar coat the crap so you don't even notice the BS hole in the donut:  All the good stuff happens after you are dead.  

Billary

She was a pretty good president while Bill unzipped his way into the history books.  She always was the brains of the outfit. He was the politi$ian and is still a good one.  It is time to give her a third term. 

She was the best since RR's voodoo economics started us down the avalanche slope to Oligarchy.  With any luck Warren will have defanged her bankster supporters before she has to deliver on her promises to them.  She will have good reasons to come down hard on the Koch suckers, and the Supreme Court will have to bash the bigots to stay in business, so she won't have to do anything for them either.  All that will be left is Eisenhower's MIC and she will have public support if not congressional support to rein that in as well.  With any luck and the continuous self destruction of the Religious Right, her apron strings may give her a congressional majority as well. 

I am still looking for a downside. 

Tell Me, Tell Me.

beliefnet

Theist wrote:

Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free.

You will have to free yourself. 

I could teach you that a Creator of everything that exists has a probability of near zero.  But the miniscule probability will still permit 100% belief. 

I could teach you that everything you know about God is the product of human imaginings.  But I could not teach you that those imaginings were not inspired by God.

I could teach you that everything taught by that little vuvuzela in a fancy dress in an over decorated balcony is a self-serving lie. But I could not teach you those lies are not from God. 

I could teach you that your whole Belief System is useless for living the life you are sure of: the one that started when you were born and will end someday. But I cannot teach you anything at all about what happens after that end.  

I could teach you that the life you are sure of is the only one worth worrying about, and that living it according to the highest standards of social benefit is the only thing that matters no matter what happens when you die.  But I cannot teach you what those highest standards are. 

You will have to teach yourself to be free. 

Warped Echoes of Religious Patriarchy

Beliefnet

Apr 22, 2015 -- 3:48AM, Kwinters wrote:

Thanks! I am hoping to do more to highlight the link between the way religious patriarchy demeans women and the warped echoes of it in today's sexist religious institution and the proponents of religion.

I suspect a more productive tack would be to examine the warped echoes of it in the secular culture.

I grew up as a secular feminist male in a Sunday Country Club society.  Everybody went to church but nobody took it very seriously.  At the university few went to church and so few took it seriously that I had to travel to a nearby Jesuit University to find a good religious discussion.

Nevertheless the echoes of male dominance and sexual entitlement were everywhere. Even the women at the university seemed to think that the Mrs. was as important as the BA.  The way to the Mrs. was universally understood as submissiveness in everything from academics to sex. 

There were a few women on campus that would whup yer ass in anything ya tried to compete in including finding them on top in sex. But the word on campus was that they were failures as women destined to a life of loneliness and frustration.  It generally didn't work out that way as there were some men in the academic world that respected that attitude and were looking for a partner rather than a "wife" and lived happily, if not ever after, long enough to propagate their genetic line. As might be expected their kids were awesome.   

Make a Difference

Jane Goodall:

You cannot get through a single day without having an impact on the world around you.  What you do makes a difference, and you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make.

Apparantly from the afterword to Roots and Shoots. 

Some Wrong Answers Better Than Others.

Apr 20, 2015 -- 7:23AM, theist wrote:

Apr 19, 2015 -- 6:14PM, JCarlin wrote:

The a-religious simply suggest that disabuse of religion would eliminate most of the wrong answers to life's questions.

Right.

How’d that work for the Bolsheviks, et al.?

Bolsheviks were a political group not a philosophically anti-religious group.  Religions were seditious hence persecuted along with all the other seditious groups. 

In any event, eliminating wrong answers does not necessarily provide right answers.  Ideologies religious or secular generally provide wrong answers.  I would argue that secular ideologies provide better answers than religious ideologies, but whether or not they are right is a long historical test.

Good Common Core Education

Testing is simply a political football.  In any metro area large or small there are a few schools or school systems where kids can get a good common core education.  Parents who care vote with their feet, sometimes literally to acquire an address in a good school district.  I know of a parent who chose homelessness to get her kids into a good school in NYC.  The kids did well.  Those who can afford it buy or rent in the good districts.  In my case in NYC it was cheaper to move to the high rent district than to pay for private schools. 

California has standardized tests for schools (STAR) that are public information, and property values are directly correlated.  STAR is referred to by some as Schools Tested by Affluence Ranking. I happen to live in a developed orchard in Santa Clara County where several square miles were built out with similar homes.  On the good school side of the district line literally identical houses can be twice the price of those on the wrong side of the line.  (I had occasion to check this out recently as a son and Jr. Hi grandson were considering a transfer to the area.  I had a utility bill with the right name on it from the good side of the line, and got listings on the wrong side for identical houses which suited the lifestyle of my son's family.  A little over half price was normal.) 

You don't have to be rich.  In fact schools in rich districts are generally not the best.  Private schools skim off all the good kids.  The middle class can generally find schools "on the west side of the power line" where with a little involvement in the PTA with the rest of the parents who paid the premium to get into the area kids get a decent education.  It helps to be upper middle class that is where the best schools are.  But in most good districts there are apartments on the wrong side of the tracks but right side of the power line where if you are willing to compromise living standards for schooling you can find something.  When I moved to CA broke but working I had an apartment in one of the best school districts in Palo Alto.  The roof leaked and the folks at the end were stealing power from the laundry room but the schools through HS were top notch. 

Shermer on BS

Wow. You don't even read the posts of others who clearly illustrate you are wrong, do you. You just stick your fingers in your ears and repeat the same falsehoods over and over again. It is hilarious. They are not falsehoods they are Beliefs.  According to Shermer in The Believing Brain even if they listen carefully information contrary to the Belief System is not even processed by the brain.  There is a filtering system in the brain popularly called conceptual blocks but scientifically observable that automatically routes contrary information to the trash file of the brain.  It is not hilarious; it is an unfortunate function of a believer's brain.  That is why it has been a practice on this board for many years to refer to such incorrect beliefs as BS a Belief System which generally contains varying amounts of the bucolic BS.  Hat tip to AciraZade for this concept.  Note the color of the page.

Religious Wars Today

beliefnet

Yea but no one is killing bodies . . . right?

Quite wrong.  The war on Godless Communism was a religious war with the genocides in Korea and Viet-Nam. Note that the white Christian Russians were spared. God told Bush/Cheney to invade Iraq. The fact that the collateral damage was Islamic was not lost on them.  There is credible evidence that Al-Qaeda was at least supported by the Christian right to foment Islamic hate to support wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan.  The Christian right is advocating bombing Iran.  Apparently the Muslims there are not "bodies."

That seems like enough bodies to make my point.  If you mean today US drones are still active in the Middle East and the 'stans.

New Atheism

beliefnet

I suspect the New Atheism is a marginal and almost ignorable part of atheism.  The important parts of atheism are

1. The nominally religious but godless with respect to the traditional Controlling Supernatural Deity.  Traditionally referred to as Deists.  Including the "Two Great Commandment" personal God of Jesus believers.  
2. Spiritual but not religious.  Probably including most pagans. 
3. Humanists of all types:  Secular Humanists, godless UUs and UCC's and humanists.
4. And (lc a) atheists for whom any kind of a God is irrelevant to living and dying. 

Most of these groups are what I call "discovered atheists" that is they found that atheism worked for them and god just became irrelevant to living.  The dying part is more complicated, as many believe in some sort of an afterlife, but gods or Jesus has nothing to do with it.  It is just a natural transition based on how one has chosen to live. 

It will be this group of atheists rather than the "New Atheists" that will shut down the controlling, politically active religious factions. 

Scholarship

beliefnet

Um, all of this is just speculative nonsense. You are not an academic JC, and until you do some actual research that is all this is.

Just compare what you make up out of nothing to what actual scholars do.  Your opinion is of no use here.

An academic studies more and more about less and less until hesh knows everything about nothing.   Congratulations.

A dilettante studies a little bit about a lot of things until hesh knows nothing about everything.

Neither is worth much in advancing the knowledge base of humanity. 

A scholar studies in depth a broad range of subjects and finds common themes and messages that help in understanding a topic.  It is speculative but it is not nonsense.  Like all scholarship it is subject to review and criticism, but ad hominem arguments don't really matter.  If you wish to comment on the accuracy of my speculations, or demonstrate that they are incorrect, I would appreciate your academic input assuming it is relevant to the speculation in question. 

Religion has been my area of scholarship for most of my life.  I have studied it from an atheistic bias, which I recognize and account for.  My studies have not been in an Ivory Tower, but in places of worship, scripture and especially music.  You may criticize from any of those points of view.  Your PhD BS is not useful.

Atheists and Social Media

beliefnet

YouTube  provider

I suggest old atheists here check out social media and other new forms of communication for the younger generation of atheists. They get off their ass and do stuff.

I have been on social media since it began and have seen many movements come and go.  New this and new that like the new Tide make a little bubble in the suds and disappears in the rinse water. 

As for getting off their asses the new generation of social mediaists seems to interpret that as thumbing a tweet or liking a post somewhere.  Even those who do get off their ass and create new media, thank you for doing so, are basically competing for views, likes and shares in a very tiny community. 

Effective use of social media is joining or forming coalitions with people going generally your way and doing what you can to help and perhaps influence where they are going.  As an atheist fighting religious oppression I have always found it more effective to join groups like the Christian Left on Facebook and support liberal Christian groups IRL that are in a position to create change.  Say what you really think about Pope Francis or Bishop Spong but do it among friends.  Support them publicly as they push hard and effectively in a good direction. 

What is Now?

 Blü wrote:

If time is an illusion then how can you age?

If only the moment exists, why can't you put yourself in any part of the moment at will, so that you can be in the part of the moment when you're 7, and when you're 77, just as you wish?

I can remember an incident over 50 years ago that had a profound effect on many aspects of my life as if it were happening now.  I can replay it in my mind as if it were a video.  Is the replay happening now, or 50 years ago?  Since the major protagonist is now deceased, what is her status in the memory? The store which was the setting is now a library, what is the status of the main foyer containing the roped off piano?  There are others. One when I was in fact 7 that I can be and have been many times in that moment. 

Blü wrote:

JCarlin

I can remember an incident over 50 years ago that had a profound effect on many aspects of my life as if it were happening now.

It's called memory. Surely to cripes it demonstrates, rather than debunks, the notion that time exists?

I can replay it in my mind as if it were a video.

Except that the video will be more accurate, and remain a record even when all the participants in the scene have died.

Is the replay happening now, or 50 years ago?

The replay is happening at the time you recall the memory / rewatch the video.

Since the major protagonist is now deceased, what is her status in the memory?

She's dead. She's remembered. Photos (and videos?) of her continue to exist, showing her at different times / ages of her life.  Same with the piano and the foyer.

Yet you were asking about a personal now, not an abstract now.  In my personal now the alive, vibrant, virtuoso is in that foyer at the piano any time I choose to recall the incident.  It is not happening in the past although in another sense it is clear that the eclectic time frame is the '50s.

A photo or even a video is merely a mnemonic to stimulate a live memory if not of a live event, a memory of a story told.  My great grandmother died when I was a child, but she had an important influence on her society.  I can read her books and sing her songs, but they are just ink on paper.  It is the stories told by those who knew her that make her live in my now. 

I am not sure I can draw a bright line at where now ends and history begins.  In a real sense what is in my mind now is all there is for me.  I am not solipsistic to think that what is in the now of others is unreal. All have their own reality that is now for them.  I agree with John Dobbs "The world began on the day that I was born. On the day I die the world will end." It is not the only world there is.  I am aware that I have affected others and my society and I am content that those effects will survive my demise.  But for me "now" will end.

Yet if now, the memory tracks in my brain aka the world began on the day that I was born, now is all that is there.  Duration is measured by interaction with the now of others.
 
If there is a God, per Iwanta, with a longer and richer now, its relevance to my now is unclear.  Either I am a puppet, which offends me.  Or I am a contributor to that now.  Either way my contribution ends in the foreseeable future and the existence of God will be moot.    

 Blü wrote:

JCarlin

Yet if now, the memory tracks in my brain aka the world began on the day that I was born, now is all that is there.

Subjectively that has to be true, but it's only one way of looking at it. One of my assumptions is that a world exists external to the self, and the external world has a past, some of which I can recall and some of which I've learnt about; and as we presently understand it, it will have a future of hundreds of billions of years, unless and until at some stage after the decay of the last proton the Big Rip robs it of identity.

I have no argument with the idea that there is a world external to the self.  Indeed much of what I do is aimed at affecting that world.  Its past is a useful resource and affects much of what I do.  There is a future as well, that those that follow me (and those that don't) will deal with. 

In fact most of my now is dealing with that external world,  trying to insure that it will be a better place for those that follow and even those that don't follow.  I can see evidence that it will be but at some point it will no longer matter.  Which is as it should be.  I see people who have grown far beyond my capabilities.  It is their now that matters. 

California Climate Change

I suspect (maybe wishful thinking) that the West Coast will see Midwest type weather now that the jet stream left its north pole home for Greenland and Siberia.  The polar storms we used to see have gone to the east coast and left us with too much warm ground to suck storms off the ocean.  Maybe atmosphere rivers but we have seen thunderstorms here already.  That would not be different weather, but clear climate change for the West Coast where climate for hundreds of years has been winter storms that stop about April 1 and don't come back till late fall.  Those storms built snow pack clear to the Rockies.  Now that snow pack is Appalachian and east coast.  Maybe you guys could use that useless KXL pipe to send some of that snow out here. 

Natural and Supernatural

beliefnet

Skeptic wrote:

I think that the difference between nature and supernature is similar to the difference between

Normal and Paranormal

Physics and Metaphysics

Medicine and Alternative Medicine

Astronomy and Astrology

History and Mythology

Philosophy and Religion

Science and Pseudo-Science

Knowing and Believing

In a sense I agree with you, except the Knowing and Believing part which I will get to later.  But it seems that your implication is the first in the pair is true and the second false.  The first generally has a consensus, but time after time parts of all have been shown to be incorrect.  Occasionally by investigation of aspects of the second in the pair. 

A few are laughable.  History and mythology are both tales told by people that weren't there purporting to be knowledgeable.  Personally I find more truth in mythology and fiction than history which is always reported by those at the top of the pile to support their position there. 

The only difference between philosophy and religion is that religion has been around a lot longer and therefore is more robust. 

The difference between knowing and believing is the amount of self-delusion involved.  If one knows something the self-delusion is complete.  A believer at least understands that some of the BS requires faith and therefore further adjustments to the belief may be considered.

God is a Man-Made Invention.

beliefnet

christine3 wrote:

'God' is a manmade invention. I'm not sorry that I think that. So much of what is in the Bible supposedly coming from 'God' (stories and instructions on how to treat people) is obviously man's thoughts treated as their imaginary invention - 'God's'. That's how people high up on the hierarchical ladder control us. 

Hey!  Don't leave out the woman who told all of the best stories in the bible: the Jahwist.

If you read J's stories with an intelligent woman author in mind the misogyny of the traditional oral history is clear from the ironic retelling of the Garden story as a prime example.  "The woman made me do it."  The woman is the only reasonable person in the whole tale.  Both God and Adam look like idiots. 

But any reading of scripture confirms your thesis that God is a human invention.  Probably not the invention of the vuvuzelas in fancy dresses in over decorated balconies, they aren't smart enough to do anything but use God for controlling their sheep.  But some of the prophets, apostles, a preacher, and some "interpreters" were smart enough to give the vuvuzelas plenty to work with.  Both for good and for awfulness. 

Why I am Not a Christian J'C Version

beliefnet

I have mentioned that I consider many parts of Christian scripture to be dysfunctional for Christians and society as a whole.  Probably the most misinterpreted and misused chapter, is Romans 1:17 through 2:3.  (The chapter break is artificial). It is obviously crucial to Christian dogma as it establishes the sinful nature of Christians.  

From a marketing (proselytizing) point of view it creates the problem that Christianity provides a solution for: Salvation.  In the question the OP responded to the lives of all (Christians) are wretched, and the only redemption comes after death, (the first death) when some will be chosen for some wonderful continued existence, and others "confounded" for eternity.  (Catholic formulation.) 

In the KJV 17: For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.  -- For those who don't (18-23) 24: Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts in their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves.  1:25-2:3 is a long litany of what God gave them up to.  That is being human.  

I for one, and as I read the Synoptic Gospels Jesus agrees, have no problem with being human.   Jesus preaches to humans, exalting their humanness, with all the issues of being human.   Jesus and I part ways in loving God anyway, even though according to Paul God cursed us with humanness for not having faith.

That, in a nutshell is the problem I have with the Christian faith.  Why would any rational human even consider it?

Why Argue Against Scripture

beliefnet

Fundy wrote:

Why do posters who do not subscribe to CHRISTIAN scriptures argue against CHRISTIAN scriptures? What possible point can they be making other than that they have nothing better in their sad lives to do...poor wretches with no God in their lives - nothing to look forward to after their demise in the first death. Poor wretches who cannot even read the scriptures they are denying yet put themselves up as opposers to this that that have no knowledge of... Phew!!

  Fair question, wretchedly formulated.  OT on original thread.
 
The main reason we argue against Christian scriptures is your proposed answer.  We have that argument thrown at us based on scripture and are expected to cower and convert.
 
In order:  Our lives are not sad.  Each day is filled with new opportunities to add to our legacy of improving the space we will leave to our intellectual heirs.  Those heirs are mainly friends and relatives, but occasionally we may affect our society as well. 

We are not poor wretches with no God, we are vibrant living beings managing our own lives for the benefit of our society not the glorification of that little vuvuzela in a fancy dress in an over decorated balcony.

We have no need to look forward to some imagined "Big Rock Candy Mountain" after death.  We are aware of and comfortable with the fact that we are mortal and look back on our lives that we are making worth dying for.  (Hat tip to Forrest Church, theist, for that trope.)

We read and understand scripture of many faiths and sects particularly that of the faith dominant in our society primarily because those scriptures have a profound effect on the society of which we are a part.  Before you can love your neighbor you must at least understand the important things in your neighbor's life.  Secondarily there are parts of scripture that we find to be dysfunctional both for our neighbor and for the society.  Therefore we oppose those parts.

The above is a personal statement, the use of the plural is an acknowledgement of many teachers, mentors, and loved ones who made it possible and necessary.

There Ain't no Fundy Like a Science Fundy.

beliefnet

Theist wrote:

If you believe so....

Skeptic wrote:

Have you ever changed your beliefs based on new empirical evidence? If not, then it's "you believing so".

Blü wrote:

I agree with skeptic.

The only way to find out if something's true in reality is to look at reality - the world external to the self, about which our senses can inform us. And to reason honestly from our perceptions.

  
There ain't no fundy like a science fundy.

Have you ever changed your beliefs based on an opinion piece? If not, why not? 

Is what you learn from a story that you did not observe from a reliable source true in reality?  Does it matter if the story was fictional, or fiction based on reality?  If no, why?

On Wanking

Would you please make a case that wank material is not healthy for your mental and physical well-being.  I might suggest that wanking is a relatively benign sexual outlet for necessary sexual release for both men and women that do not have a horny sexual partner available.  As the Lazarus Long wisdom aphorism says “Masturbation is cheap, clean, convenient, and free of any possibility of wrongdoing — and you don't have to go home in the cold. But it's lonely.”  R/A. Heinlein.

Let’s consider whoring? Dangerous, in most places illegal and therefore exploitative of women. True religions advocate a whore wife for all men, but headaches, pregnancies, and other problems may interfere.  Casual sex? Aside from the fact that most of it is de facto sexual assault,  At U Oregon  35% of women and 14% of men had non-consensual sex according to a 2014 survey.  It ain't gonna provide for one's daily needs. 

I suspect the problem in the Middle East is not being able to go to the mall or a billboard for a pulchritude fix, Only marginally religious.