Shortchanging the Living

Available evidence shows that after we die there is no way to do anything at all for those who remain alive. All that they have is whatever legacy is built for them by the deceased. The material legacy is of questionable value. As Lazarus Long says

Don't handicap your children by making their lives too easy.

The emotional and intellectual legacy is far more important, and the beauty is that building it simply means paying attention to those who will enjoy it.

I wonder about those who spend their lives chasing a place in Heaven. What do those that remain get besides a nice party to send them off to Heaven. When the living think about the deceased, what to they think about? Do they simply wonder if the bet on Pascal's wager has paid off? I guess if they have been conditioned properly and are investing heavily at the Pascal Casino themselves this is OK. But what a waste.

When I think of my deceased parents, and those close to them and to me that are no longer living, I never wonder about what they are doing now, I am too busy reviewing all the important lessons they taught me and the rest of my world in their rich lives that were dedidicated to making that world the best they could make it. Certainly lives worth dying for in Forrest's words.

Eternal Reflections

Email in response to an ex Christian's questions about death.

"The issue of mortality is a very difficult one for former Christians since Pie in the Sky after you die is really all Christians have to sell these days so they sell the Hell out of it. If you ask a Christian 'Why' when they blather about eternal bliss kissing God's ass in heaven, you will get some interesting reactions, but almost all of them boil down to Why Not?

I would suggest that you ask yourself that question? Why do you want eternal life? Why would you want some sort of existence after you die? Particularly since available evidence says you can do nothing for those that remain after you. The most likely scenario is you spend the first millennium sucking your thumb and gazing at your navel and trying to figure out something different to do for the next millennium. That is a pretty good definition of Hell as far as I am concerned. The alternative of kissing God's ass is just as bad.

One resource and a thought. The resource is Love and Death by Forrest Church. Forrest is living on time borrowed from the medical profession in spite of their assurances that they had no time to lend. He was not lying in a sermon he gave in which he said he had six months to live. That was a very generous estimate given his metastasized esophageal cancer. Love and Death grew out of that diagnosis. It turned out that the medico's were mistaken, but that wasn't Forrest's fault although his incredible will to live probably influenced the outcome.

The thought is that there is no atheist dogma that says that an afterlife is not possible. The only dogma that applies is that Pascal's wager is a losing bet because if there is an afterlife it is certain that a non-existent God has no influence at all on it. Kiss Herm ass all you want to while you are alive and whatever happens after you die will happen just the same as if you kissed some other God's ass or your own for that matter.

Some people think that there is a possibility, slim, that a natural result of death is that the spirit is released to continuing doing whatever one has been doing in life with the other spirits that have been released from their bodies. The only difference this should make in one's life is that it is even more important to live in a way that you would be happy to live with forever. If there is no end to the spirit at death, then the spirit had better be well trained in enjoying whatever it does.

Thanks for your questions, At my age I need to think about them.
"

The Human Mind Trumps everything

Belief Corner: Religious and Political Debate - Educated out of God?: "Yep. and the human mind trumps everything.

How?

When the human brain finally matures it potentially, note, potentially not necessarily, is able to override both genetic and environmental programming to take control of its destiny. It may not have complete freedom of action, Steven Hawking cannot control the disease in control of his body, and John Nash had to overcome his probably genetic schizophrenia, but their minds were able to control their mental destiny. Extreme cases to be sure, but functioning adult downs syndrome people, who are making the best of their limited mental capabilities are common enough to be seen frequently in public.

Most people with disabilities either genetic or environmental, need help and support both medical and emotional to assume control, and it certainly is not automatic, but it is possible and happens frequently enough that I will stand by my statement that the human mind trumps all. It is of course a choice to play the trump, and some chose not to. A tightly controlled religious upbringing is the most common environmental programming that is accepted without question by the mind and the trump to override is never played. But enough are, even in tight fundamentalist societies, that the mind even trumps God."

This was in response to one of those tedious nature vs nurture debates with respect to God beliefs. The preceeding imo renders the whole subject moot.

Genetic determinism?

Belief Corner: Religious and Political Debate - Educated out of God?: "What those genes have given humans is an extremely flexible massively parallel computer that for instance is capable of recognizing friends instantly from a variety of positions and from body language and facial expressions determine their mood and feelings toward us at that moment and then communicating that information almost instantaneously through large fast mono-dendrite nerves to action centers of the brain which use the information to take appropriate action. One might say that the ability to recognize faces and determine moods is genetic and perhaps it is. But appropriate actions in response to that knowledge? Aside from simple paradigms like fight or fly, useful of course but not real useful at a cocktail party or business meeting, the mind has considerable flexibility in determining appropriate behaviors. Unless the genetic imperative is do the right thing, the genetic component in normal social interactions is nil."

The Post-Rapture Postman - Postal Service for the Saved? There's a sucker born again every minute II

Beliefnet Community > Thread - The Post-Rapture Postman -: "Just dug up this article from Orlando, Florida and thought it was too funny! An enterprising entrepreneur in Orlando Florida is offering to deliver messages to friends and relatives Left Behind on behalf of believers who fully expect to be swept up into the Rapture. Since he's an atheist, he'll undoubtedly be Left Behind as well when the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse thunder over the horizon......."

www.postrapturepost.com

What makes a social animal.

Brain Cells for Socializing | Science & Nature | Smithsonian Magazine:

"Allman likes to show a clip from a documentary about a group of African elephants that adopted an orphaned calf. When the baby elephant falls into a water hole, the matriarch quickly marches in, followed by the others. Together she and a second female use their tusks, trunks and legs to free the calf from the muck. Another animal paws at the steep bank with its foot, building a ramp the youngster uses to climb to safety. 'It's really remarkable,' says Allman of how the elephants rapidly sized up the crisis and worked together to save the baby. 'It's a very high sort of functioning that very few animals are able to do. And,' he adds with a chuckle, 'humans can do it only on good days.'"

An amazing article on a particular high speed nerve cell in the brain that seems to facilitate the recognition of social signals in a few highly social intelligent species like higher primates, elephants, whales, dolphins, and orcas.

Determining moral actions

Belief Corner: Deciding Whether Something is Moral:

"In a moral crisis situation there is no time for analysis. The moral sense of the person will determine the moral choice.

Moral sense is very similar to language. We get the basics and the ability to function morally from our parents and/or care givers as infants and toddlers. The genetic imperative is to make mom smile. As the child grows and joins social groups other than family the moral sense will be refined by what works to keep the paddle off the butt, or other disincentive for anti-social actions. Compliance with the mores of the peer group, that is avoiding ostracism guides pre- and early adolescence and moral development may end there for many. Religion driven morality generally results in such stagnation of moral development.

As the individual matures and makes choices about social connections the morality of the chosen social group will normally be accepted with varying degrees of thoughtfulness and analysis, but once the moral sense is conditioned it will guide actions in all moral situations. Post crisis analysis may result in the modification of the moral sense but action in all cases is determined by the developed moral sense at that point."

Rob Paterson's "Eternal Reflections"

Compose Mail - Yahoo! Mail: " Re. Rob Paterson's Eternal Reflections

If this is not in your [Volti] 30 year recording project, it must be. It is an incredibly moving piece for young and old alike. Colin being the young and Carlin being the old. I don't know where Mary Rose fits in. It has the makings of a modern Choral Standard, Volti should do what you can to help it along the path. Thank you for the commission and the first performance, but the commercial recording will put the icing on the wonderful cake you made."

One would think that three texts on eschatology, tragedy, and death would make for a rather dismal piece of music. But Rob has created one of the most moving and beautiful compositions it has ever been my pleasure to hear. A poignant pleasure to be sure, but aren't those really the best kind?

If you ever get a chance to hear this work, or Volti does record it, let nothing get in your way. Hear it!

Edited to reflect title change by the composer. Even though he ignored my suggestions I was honored to be a part of the process.

Yosemite Springs BB

Yosemite Springs BB - conventionally Reviews, Cheap Rates, Deals conventionally - Coulterville | coffee shopcoffeemaker: "Yosemite Springs BB - conventionally Reviews, Cheap Rates, Deals conventionally - Coulterville
5 月 18th, 2009 · コメントはまだありません

I am a swotter and homelessness to in good likeness pennies wherever I can. mostly Yosemite Springs is frightful because you breath at a wonderful ritzy chair to set-back in restitution consent the unusually judge as a motel cubicle quarters. mostly The rations is absolutely exclusive cooked, the towels are muted, there is DirecTV and DVD players in each cubicle quarters and there is a steam flood so you can get rid of yourself of all of the confidential data you aggregate while hiking."

Absolutely brilliant automatic translation. Makes me want to jump in the car and Go! But instead I will probably spend the day trying to scrut the inscrutable Japanese mind to put together an idiomatic English translation.

Is forcing people to live ethical?

Growing Old with Autism: The Silent Struggle - TIME: "Noah, my younger brother, does not talk. Nor can he dress himself, prepare a meal for himself or wipe himself. He is a 42-year-old man, balding, gaunt, angry and, literally, crazy. And having spent 15 years at the Fairview Developmental Center in Costa Mesa, Calif., a state facility, Noah has picked up the con's trick of lashing out before anyone could take a shot at him.

Noah's autism has been marked by 'three identified high priority maladaptive behaviors that interfere with his adaptive programming. These include banging his head against solid surfaces, pinching himself and grabbing others,'"

Related: From The Responsibility Project "An Alzheimer patient has wandered off again. What do you do?

I am beginning to wonder if we are being cruel to these people by forcing them to stay alive. The Responsibility Project would not allow my comment: "Maybe he is wandering off to find a place to die." Maybe the Autism patient is banging his head against the wall in an ineffective suicide attempt.

Just because the body is capable of supporting life are we being ethical in forcing it to do so in the absence of informed consent of the mind controlling that body? There are of course difficult issues of determining intent from a damaged mind, but is it not ethically presumptuous to say the head banging or the wandering off is not a suicide attempt, or at the very least an attempt to end the lack of control over one's life?

I have given explicit instruction to my family that if the genetic dementia expresses itself in spite of the medical preventative measures, they are to find a care facility near the back country in the Sierra, Hetch Hetchy, by preference with explicit instructions not to limit my wandering off. If some day I don't return they may assume that I was careless and provided lunch for a bear. It wouldn't offend me in the least to be recycled in that manner.

My family on my mother's side has a tradition of "Turning their face to the wall" when they decide their will to live is no longer present. Not a bad choice, and I am sure I could do it when necessary, but I would much rather wander in the wilderness on my last day and "Turn my face to the cliff." Sure I will feed a wild animal instead of a crematory, but the wild animal won't care or know the difference between me and any other dead or dying large animal.

Abiogenesis

Chemist Shows How RNA Can Be the Starting Point for Life - NYTimes.com:

"An English chemist has found the hidden gateway to the RNA world, the chemical milieu from which the first forms of life are thought to have emerged on earth some 3.8 billion years ago.

He has solved a problem that for 20 years has thwarted researchers trying to understand the origin of life — how the building blocks of RNA, called nucleotides, could have spontaneously assembled themselves in the conditions of the primitive earth. The discovery, if correct, should set researchers on the right track to solving many other mysteries about the origin of life. It will also mean that for the first time a plausible explanation exists for how an information-carrying biological molecule could have emerged through natural processes from chemicals on the primitive earth.

The author, John D. Sutherland, a chemist at the University of Manchester, likened his work to a crossword puzzle in which doing the first clues makes the others easier."

I like his theory as it takes place in the warm puddles that life like us should start in. The high energy source is UV rather than geothermal which again makes more sense for surface life. A major step in the right direction as it gives a plausible pathway to RNA.

Abiogenesis

The blue roads of thinking: Thinking about Death.: "Have you ever thought about How Life on earth ever began?"

I am a chemist by training if not inclination anymore, and I have no problem at all with natural abiogenesis. Organic molecules that can hook up will and will try every way possible. (Kind of like some people I know.) The fact (observed) that ACGT/U formed a stable and self-replicating combination is not surprising. Nor is it surprising that once the replicator was formed that it used up all the ACGT and U that was available making more replicators. Nor that once formed the replicators "got busy" making more efficient replicators.

If it makes you feel good to think that God made the first replicator and threw it into the ACGTU soup to make more replicators be my guest. Or is God the first simple RNA molecule and jumped into the ACGTU soup to make more RNA in Herm image? Then like the Sorcerers Apprentice just couldn't turn off all the multiplying and changing stuff that resulted. And finally when humans came around Hesh got so pissed off Hesh flooded the world to try to start over. Didn't work obviously.

Thinking about Death.

Beliefnet Community > Thread - My Story: Atheist by Necessity, not by Choice!:

"Personally I find that the probability of an afterlife is close to zero is quite liberating. As Forrest Church says in Love and Death, love survives death and those we have loved and made a difference in their lives will love us in return and as we think of those who have died with love and respect those who follow us will pay it forward with the same love and respect. They will tell stories about me to the next few generations and maybe someone will learn something. I do my best in life to build a Legacy that will be worth telling stories about.

Just recently I passed some advice from my father, a great athlete, to his great grandson who will probably not be a great athlete but who is trying to learn a sport for fun. Maybe my grandson didn't even listen, but the time I spent with the memories of my father and the love I still gave and received from him makes his death merely a release from the pain of the cancer that took his life."

Atheist divorce

The Bright Line...:

Still, I think there's more to it [Why there is less divorce among atheists.] More than the lack of religion to not fight about.

"Actually there is. Since atheists do not have a prepackaged moral system handed to them 'From God' they need to have figured out a moral system that works in the society that they find themselves in. Relationships with others in the society will necessarily be an important part of that morality. In all important relationships a functioning atheist will have a good idea of the reciprocal responsibilities in the relationship and be comfortable with them or will not enter into the relationship.

Most atheists I know are almost prudish when it comes to sex, and won't even think of procreative sex without a stable relationship to support it. Even 'Recreational sex' is approached with extreme care due to the implied commitments involved.

It is real hard for an atheist to hide from God and sneak a push in the bush. The atheist's moral judge always knows exactly what hesh is doing and whether it is right or wrong. And if it is wrong the atheist can't just nail it to the cross and forget it. If it is wrong, it has to be fixed."

This does not mean that divorce is not common, but it is generally later in life and usually after children are independent if there are children involved. An important part of this is that much of the married atheist's society revolves around the family, and there is little emotional support for those who choose to leave the family. In a church the congregation will choose sides, but there will always be emotional support for the "Sinner" in the broken relationship. An atheist does not have this support, so the justification for the break up has to be pretty strong to avoid losing a good chunk of one's friends and acquaintances.

Lenore Skenazy -- Quit Treating Parents Like Babies - washingtonpost.com

Lenore Skenazy -- Quit Treating Parents Like Babies - washingtonpost.com:

"And here's my favorite recommendation from a book of 'Baby Must-Haves' (yes, a 200-plus-page volume on items you simply must buy unless you want your baby to be seriously deprived): 'You'll get more bang for your buck with a toy that can be played with in more than one way -- for instance, a push toy that can also be pulled.'

Now, you've got to feel sorry for the poor writer who had to come up with something -- anything -- to say about a pull toy. But can you think of a push toy that can't be pulled? Can you think of any toy that can't be pulled, besides a cranky daddy trying to watch SportsCenter?"

I guess these are for those who don't have a pastor to guide them in these and other areas of their lives that are on a similar level. Need help in socializing your child? Bring herm to our Cradle Service where only our brand of God will infect your child's mind. As the Jesuits point out by the time hesh is 10 we will own him. It works for any cult.

The purpose of Death.

Beliefnet Community > Thread - Evolution makes no sense.:
"Death is Nature's way of telling you you flunked out."

Would Jesus refute theTelevangelists?

Beliefnet Community > Thread - Human Dignity, Good and Evil:

Yes, it does matter [when Paul lived], because people that knew Jesus were still alive, and therefore would have attempted to correct him or refute him, if his info about Jesus was incorrect.
El Cid

"Paul was creating a cult based on Jesus Christ, not Jesus. The only relationship of Jesus of Nazareth to Jesus Christ was the hijacking of his name and charisma. The three Synoptic Gospels which were written after Paul, are a systematic and largely successful exercise in correcting and refuting Paul.

It is impossible to read Paul with the synoptics open in three other bibles and find anything in the synoptics that supports anything in Paul. It is almost a trivial exercise in reading comprehension to find a refutation of Paul's misanthropy and misogyny in any random passage from the words of Jesus in one of the three gospels. If you do it in the other direction that is read the synoptics and try to find anything at all in Paul's misanthropy and misogyny that relates to the Jesus you find in the synoptics, you will find absolutely nothing.

I find the evidence for the existence of Jesus, the itinerant preacher and entertainer, persuasive. He would be a great televangelist today and as then he would refute all the Pauline garbage preached by the followers of his competitor in the religious leader industry."

What would Jesus do? If he were alive today would he have a television ministry based in a megachurch in Marin County? It sure wouldn't be in LaLa Land. Would he be regaling against the preachers of hate for your neighbors of the wrong religion, color, or sexual preference? Would he be successful?

I think the answers to all of the above would be yes. We are seeing a return to the gospels, particularly the Two Great Commandments in many local congregations in many of the big denominations. Certainly the bigots are the loudest and sell the lead in and follow up ads and so are supported by the networks or at least the cable companies. Someone foaming at the mouth at a gay person's funeral will get a spot on the news just like a train wreck. All the news companies care about is eyeballs, they don't care if the eyeball is blurry from booze or not, well, they do boozers buy. Train wrecks sell ads, and any train wreck will do. An emotional train wreck is as good, or maybe better than a steel one. They can milk it longer.

Why do I ask so many Why's?

Thread - Is there a moral position without God?:

"The three year olds I know would never accept the cop out of Goddidit. They want to know why in terms they can understand and wrap their rapidly growing minds around. I would feel that Goddidit would be a real damper on that vibrant inquisitiveness that is the birthright of all humans."

Since they weren't stunted by Goddidit most of the kids I dealt with were 2 or so when they got into the Why?'s, and many of them never got over it. One I know got the nickname of Rikki for Rikki Tikky Tavi because she always had to "Run and find out." I suspect that after 30 odd years she is still running and finding out. No one ever told her she had to ask God's permission to do so.

The title of the post is reputed to be an actual question of J'Carlin at 2. (The "J" was more important then which is why it is part of J'Carlin). I hope it is true. I want to know everything and I want to know why about everything. I'll never get there but I will try.

Moral Standards

Is there a moral position without God?:

"Morals are not beliefs they are behavior patterns bred into us over millions of years of being dependent on our social group for survival. Doing what we must for the good of the social group is the beginning and the end of moral behavior. If the social group is religious, doing what the mediator says God wants is part of the package. Many of us have a more cosmopolitan social group see Appiah, Cosmopolitanism - Ethics in a World of Strangers and the insular and usually xenophobic morality of religious groups just does not work for us."

Atheism for Theists

Thread - Can there be a moral position without God?:

"Many have a hard time with atheism as they try to map it into a belief system. It is not a belief system, it is simply a way of managing life without a deity to blame things on. Life itself is far from random, natural selection insures that only advantageous changes are conserved. Life is a series of events, most predictable but some indeed random that must be dealt with in a reasonable and for most atheists a rational manner. An atheist will waste no time trying to second guess a deity or try to get the deity to intercede, hesh will deal with events as they are for good or for bad and try to emerge with life and integrity intact."

What Makes Us Human?: Scientific American

What Makes Us Human?: Scientific American: "It turns out that until humans came along, HAR1 evolved extremely slowly. In chickens and chimps—whose lineages diverged some 300 million years ago—only two of the 118 bases differ, compared with 18 differences between humans and chimps, whose lineages diverged far more recently. The fact that HAR1 was essentially frozen in time through hundreds of millions of years indicates that it does something very important; that it then underwent abrupt revision in humans suggests that this function was significantly modified in our lineage."

And HAR1 is only one, and it doesn't even code a protein. It simply! regulates the protein coding genes around it. Great article well worth reading for anyone interested in genetics.

Spirit continuation after death.

Belief Corner: Religious and Political Debate - agnostic atheist and agnostic theist?: "UPGs are not particularly reliable in dealing with the unknowable. If there is any continuation of the spirit after death, highly unlikely in my UPG, but possible, we will all go to the same place when we die. It will be a natural continuation of the way we lived unmediated by supernatural influences. In other words it will be a completely natural continuation of the spirit we nurtured while alive. Which tells me that whether a UPG includes an afterlife or not, one better be sure that the spirit they are nurturing in this life is one which they would like to live with forever. My guess is that it is WYSIWYG once it posts after death."

Those who think Pascal's wager will make any difference after death seem to me to be taking the short end of the odds if they are neglecting their personal spiritual enrichment in this life. I wonder what it would be like to spend eternity in Westboro Baptist Church? Sure sounds like Hell to me.

Moral Standard

moral position without God?: "Lavengro wrote:

Could someone tell me what this [moral] standard is, whence it derives?

I don't know about others but my standard is that the welfare, defined as satisfaction with the life they are living, of those in the society which I choose as my own, is a higher priority than even my own welfare. This is a genetic imperative derived from countless generations of primate ancestors for whom group welfare was a necessary condition for survival. The society definition is historically a village, even cities have historically been collections of village sized neighborhoods, although in cities some villages may overlap.

This genetic imperative has usually been co-opted by mediators for Gods, and occasionally by national leaders, by imposing a society on individuals either by indoctrination or more rarely by coercion. Churches have transferred the society from the village to the parish but the concept remains the same."

The difference for me is that I do not accept another's definition of what my society is. I may consider those outside my society as being important and worthy of consideration, but they are not covered by the obligation I accept for my society, and become a different consideration where my welfare and that of my society takes precedence.

Arguing with a belief.

beliefnet :

"To argue with a belief is to tilt at a windmill. The sails keep going round and round, with any damage to the sails ignored rather than repaired. One gets the impression that if the sails are shredded completely, the believer will turn the crank hermself to keep the sails moving."

One gets to the point that there is nothing left to tilt at. The sails are completely gone. At that point one can only say, as belief is usually God related, "God Bless You, it is all you have left."

Is Evolution a Science?

Thread - Is Evolution a Science?:

"Evolution is alive and well for humans, it just doesn't involve physical survival to breed anymore. It is a given in a modern technological society that mortality prior to adulthood is minimal, and evolution is focused on how adults are able to cope with living in that modern technological society. Numbers are no longer a measure of fitness, indeed out breeding resources without the technology to manage those resources is evidence of lack of fitness for survival in a modern society and the results speak for themselves. The wars and genocides in Africa and the Middle East and the slaughter of millions of citizens by modern despots while deplorable, can be thought of as evolution in action. Evolution has never been kind to the less fit by whatever standard species fitness is determined.

Evolution is occurring in Bangalore, Shanghai, parts of the US and a few other areas of the planet. It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out over the next few generations. I suspect that those parts of the US where creationism is taught in science class, will find themselves among the unfit. The country is rich enough and benevolent enough to provide all with a couch and a TV to keep them off the streets, but it will be interesting to see if their religion provides them with meaning and purpose to get off the couch even to breed."

Evolution like economics is a dismal science.

God beliefs

Bread and Circuses: "Mar 27, 2009 - 06:20AM, artboyz wrote:

There is only one reason to be an atheist, and we all agree: There is no rational reason to believe in God.

'There is no reason to personally believe in God.' works better for me. Rational or irrational there is no argument that points to God for me. I put the personal reference in there because many atheists, I am one of them, find many reasons, rational and irrational, for others to believe in God. I also agree that existential issues are not germane, nor are definitional issues for God.

CaliberCadillac seems to enjoy the bread and circuses provided by his Christ. If he is hungry the loaves and fishes will sustain him. If his boat is sinking someone will walk across the water to save him. If he is needy God bless him.

I have other ways of dealing with hunger, danger, and other needs, and I think they are much more effective, but I certainly wouldn't suggest them to CaliberCadillac. They all take rational, intelligently directed action. Faith and prayer only get in the way."

In line with my long time thinking that one should let the believers believe. It seems that very few have the wherewithal to think for themselves about important issues. They do what they can to earn their tithe, and let the guy in the fancy dress worry about everything else.

Unitarians v Universalists v atheists

Unitarians v Universalists: "Mar 29, 2009 - 04:53AM, RevDorris wrote:

The children are in a state of rebellion against those who would want us to deny the existence of God. They want a return to God centered worship and open spiritual training and development.
Rev Dorris

I am am one of those children rebelling against those who deny God in UU churches. I find those churches where God is a three letter word, never to be said out loud or even lusted after in the heart to be sterile exercises in community building and frequently social action, both of which are desireable but IMO have nothing to do with spiritual growth. A Sunday morning gender inclusive Rotary meeting or Elks club.

For a UU church to gain my support it must be a diverse community of Paul denying Christians; hopefully a few ex-Jews that still cling to their Jewish roots and ritual; Pagans who wish to share and enrich their spirituality with the 'Unitarians' who only have one God; maybe a smattering of others who found other traditional religions too confining, and a few atheists to remind all that God is not necessary for spirituality.

And the sine qua non for me is a music program where no spiritual music is forbidden. Catholic Prayers? Jewish hazzanut? Buddhist Chants? Lutheran Hymns? Bring 'em all on. These folks have had hundreds if not thousands of years of refining the music that connects people to their higher being whatever that is. And believers are needed to bring the passion, in the best sense of the word, to the music."

I am glad to hear from Rev Dorris that the children are rebelling. I quit rebelling a while ago and found other ways to feed my spiritual needs without a pile of rocks (or bricks) and a guy in a fancy dress to help. I was not happy to do so, but I never was into Rotary and found my social needs satisfied in other venues than churches. Social action was much more satisfying with direct participation unguided by the guy in the fancy dress and politically correctness of the causes. I was usually ahead of the UU's in political correctness and got tired of pulling them along.

I found the internet early on as a source of spirituality APOD for example, and since most of my social group was scattered all over the country email was an early substitute for coffee hour.

I think churches of all denominations need to be aware of and beware of Web 2.0. Any church that doesn't have a Web 2.0 site based on DRUPAL or the equivalent is probably going to have to build one or die. And soon.

The problem of evil ..

Thread - The Bright Line...: "Mar 25, 2009 - 05:22PM, Leight wrote:

....addressing the problem of evil..... first of all you/I/everyone is straitjacketed in evil, that is a sin nature that is all dimensional and personal, your flesh, hormones, cravings ect....

Sorry the sin nature was invented by Paul as a marketing ploy for his Savior. Since everybody has flesh, hormones, cravings and especially sexual cravings, (note that all animals that have survived as a species have an intense drive to reproduce or they would be extinct) Paul said this drive and all of its variations including missionary position sex for the express purpose of reproduction are sin but the last one is forgivable presumably so that Christians don't join the extinct species that didn't have a reproductive drive. Nonetheless making a Christian baby is a sin, so you better hang it on the cross and get your GOOHF ticket for it.

But most Christians say if reproducing is sin we might as well have fun doing it and hang that on the cross along with the missionary sex and maybe God won't notice and give us the GOOHF card anyway. From there it is a slippery slope to hating neighbors, killing enemies, kinky sex, drugs, and rock and roll. Some call this atheism but notice that the GOOHF card is in the back pocket to hang on the cross which means that God is still looking over the shoulder. As long as God is there it ain't atheism by definition."

Atheists don't have a cross to hang the bad things they do on, so they tend to pay attention to everything they do so that they don't have to pick up the pieces when they break something. No supernatural omnipotent alpha humanoid to kiss it and make it better either for the injured or the injurer.

Mediocrity

Beware of the lollipop of mediocrity...one lick and you suck forever...

From Elizabeth's friend Andy via facebook.

Musicians' brains keep time--With one another: Scientific American Blog

Musicians' brains keep time--With one another: Scientific American Blog: "Ever wonder how musicians manage to play in unison? Credit their brain waves: they synchronize before and while musicians play a composition, according to new research."

And people say ESP is a myth. If randomly selected musicians, that is unrelated, can synchronize brain waves just to play a random piece of music, in a lab yet, with no audience to play to or play off of, what can be said of the brain waves of a chorus or orchestra in a hall full of people wanting to participate in the experience. Or. hold on to your God beliefs here, pro or anti, what about a church full of people singing hymns and praying to God. Can it be that the synchrony creates God, or perhaps recreates the God of the previous meetings back as far a the religion can trace its roots? Oh yeah, I forgot, they could be synchronizing with their supernatural omnipotent alpha humanoid in the sky, or more likely with the little tinhorn in the fancy dress in the overdecorated balcony.

In any event if synchronizing brain waves isn't ESP, just what is it? I think the skeptics need to examine the evidence and take a closer look at some of the phenomena they love to debunk.

YEC vs Homo Sapiens.

Thread - where is the apeman??

From Ken : "Young Earth Creationists don't belong to the species Homo sapiens. They believe they were created from 'the dust of the ground' about six thousand years ago. If they're right, they can't be related to those of us who evolved from countless generations of animals during millions upon millions of years. We're Homo sapiens. They're a kind of pottery."

ID in Science Class?

Belief Corner: THE Atheist Bible!: "Re: THE Atheist Bible!
« Reply #42 on: Today at 02:05:14 PM »


Quote from: jcarlinsv on Today at 01:12:48 PM

Never attempt to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Lazarus Long - RAHeinlein 1973

In fact the whole paragraph that it was extracted from is relevant to the topic of Ken Ham.

I have never swindled a man. At most I kept quiet and let him swindle himself. This does no harm, as a fool cannot be protected from his folly. If you attempt to do so, you will not only arouse his animosity but also you will be attempting to deprive him of whatever benefit he is capable of deriving from experience. Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Time Enough for Love, Robert A Heinlein p31, 1973

Ken Ham is providing a useful service to those unable to deal with the complexities of science, with complex issues of morality, and taking responsibility for their own behavior. The answers are all there in Genesis: God created you, you sinned, Hesh destroyed your world because of your sin. Believe faithfully and Christ will save you."

Do I feel sorry for the pigs Ken Ham is singing to? No. If they are incapable of dealing with the the modern world, and their religion gives them solace and the ability to do whatever they do to earn their tithe who am I to tell them they are fools? Would they thank me for it? Not a chance.

I am even coming to think that creationism in a science class in school is a good idea. Anyone capable of science will recognize it for the BS it is and move on. Those that need the BS to get them through the day will use it to get through science class to finger painting or shop or home ec. or whatever they are capable of doing.

Placebo Effect:: Believe in your Doctor

Placebo Effect: A Cure in the Mind: Scientific American: "The latest research has shown that the placebo effect does not always arise from a conscious belief in a drug. Alternatively, it may grow out of subconscious associations between recovery and the experience of being treated, from the pinch of a shot to a doctor’s white coat. Such subliminal conditioning can control bodily processes, including immune responses and the release of hormones. Meanwhile researchers have decoded some of the biology of placebo responses, demonstrating that they stem from active processes in the brain."

As Dr. Elizabeth Black told me one day after I bragged about how good my doctor was,

If you have faith in your doctor, everything she tells you to do works.

So far she has cured asthma, allergies, cancer, back pain that has been a problem all my life, shoulder pain, and fragile skin.

Certainly I take all the pills, do all the exercises, and slather on the vitamin E creme, and since Dr. Chun and Kaiser know everything, everything works. Probably other things I have forgotten as well. But thank you I will continue to believe in my doctor as the only thing in my life that I believe in. If some day I need a miracle cure my prayer will be an email to my doctor. It will work.

Why we make music

Welcome Address, by Karl Paulnack: "From these two experiences, I have come to understand that music is not part of “arts and entertainment” as the newspaper section would have us believe. It’s not a luxury, a lavish thing that we fund from leftovers of our budgets, not a plaything or an amusement or a pass time. Music is a basic need of human survival. Music is one of the ways we make sense of our lives, one of the ways in which we express feelings when we have no words, a way for us to understand things with our hearts when we cannot with our minds."

From a welcoming address to incoming students at the Boston Conservatory. Have a hankie handy, you will need it in a couple of sections of this address.

The Purpose Prize | Encore: Work That Matters in the Second Half of Life

The Purpose Prize | Encore: Work That Matters in the Second Half of Life: "The Purpose Prize
Pursue Your Passion,
Win $100,000

The Purpose Prize awards up to $100,000 to social innovators over 60 who are creating new ways to solve pressing social issues - from education to health care, poverty to global warming. Winners are finding purpose in an encore career and putting their experience to work for the greater good.

Know someone over 60 who is changing the world?
Nominate Now
Deadline: March 5, 2009"

J'C: Great idea, I wish I knew someone who had a shot. If you do use the link to enter them as beliefnet gets the credit for the referral

Poker Insight and investing

Poker Insight: "You can find a step-by-step tutorial on all this, free of charge, at www.wealtheffect.com/invest1.htm — start at the beginning and see how far you want to take it. If you learn enough to realize that you don't know enough, find an investment advisor who understands these concepts and has the long-term track record to prove it. There is a saying in the poker world that applies to the stock market: if you can't tell who the patsy is, you're the patsy."

The link is a decent quick introduction to playing the market. I haven't checked out the wealtheffect.

In Defense of the Recession Blame Game - TIME

In Defense of the Recession Blame Game - TIME: "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord, except that right now everyone wants a little piece of it. The mob has been chanting for months, ever since former Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson arrived in late September on Capitol Hill to warn of disaster, pass around his three-page plan and demand $700 billion to fix the problem."

Or from their chemicals on dead trees edition:

The venting of spleen is not a science--it is a joy.

Go on line and vote for your favorites.

They are all there Mozilo, Graham, Paulson, Fuld, and of course Madoffwiththesmartmoney.

I had a little trouble with Madoff. How bad is it to screw people who should know better and agreed to the screwing. As I am well known to say victimless crimes are not crimes, where do I stand on this? I have little sympathy for victims of Ponzi schemes, and pyramid scams. They all think they will get out on time. But as you will see in the next post. Look for the patsy.

Am I SAVED?

Is there a god...? - Beliefnet Forums:.

When asked about God I don't worry about existence issues, "I will worry about worthiness issues and generally be brutal about it. I especially like

Have you accepted JESUS CHRIST as YOUR SAVIOR!?

It gives me free reign to tee off on all of Paul, the hijacking of Jesus' good name, the bigotry and just plain inhumanity of God for sending all but holy assholes to Hell. The possibilities are endless but it is hard to keep them on the front porch that long. I usually invite them in for coffee so they can't get away easily."

Executive dole pay plan

Tom Toles sure has his finger on this one. Don't miss the tag in the lower right.


During the transition period The Obama Team posted a "question box." Ask and respond to questions from ordinary people, that is those that donated less than $200 to the campaign (I think) One of the most heavily approved questions was the Ben and Jerry solution to the bail outs. As many of you know Ben and Jerry for a long time had a pay plan that limited executive pay to 17 times the lowest paid employee. At half a $mill that makes lowest paid $30,000. I don't think so!

But he is trying!

Skepticblog » Sympathy for the Devil

Skepticblog » Sympathy for the Devil:

"The problem he would have in admitting that his religion was wrong on homosexuality is that his whole religion is based on Paul’s misanthropy and hatred of all things sexual. If everything you do as a human, especially those things you do with your genitals is a sin, you can then internalize the need for a Savior. And Guess what? Paul created one for you: Christ the Son of God, the result of God raping a woman committed to another man, who was tortured, died for a few days and miraculously went to Heaven to save all from the wrath of this dysfunctional God who hates all human sexuality."

My comment. Nothing to add.

Skepticblog » Sympathy for the Devil

Skepticblog » Sympathy for the Devil: "In the film [Pelosi's Trials of Ted Haggard] you can hear the guilt in Ted Haggard’s voice and see the self-loathing in his face. Ted Haggard is a broken man, broken not by his biology but by his religion. You cannot “fix” people’s biology, but you can change their religion, and it’s time for Ted Haggard to give up on his religion — and perhaps religion altogether.

J'C: I can't count the number of people who have been "Broken by their Religion" Catholics who enjoy sex and want to control the number of children that result. Evangelicals who cannot hate. Christians and Jews who really read the bible and have to choose between God and self respect.

I respect believers, their religion helps them get through their day and do the things they need to. But I do not respect most religions, especially those that compel rejecting or modifying intrinsic human instincts like sex and pair bonding.

Atheism And Organ Donation

Atheism And Organ Donation - Beliefnet Forums:

"I am a blood donor, and at every opportunity I tell the story of a bicyclist hit by a motorcyclist with spikes on his leathers. My first action on arriving at the hospital was show my donor card and tell the doctors that they could use as many of my 200+ pints as needed to help. I am also a registered marrow donor. I haven't needed to endure the donation process yet, but a good friend, as well as a celebrity who also is a friend, are alive and well because of marrow donations. I take great pleasure in the fact that I was on stage with Mary Travers albeit hidden in the chorus, at a recent concert 3.5 years after her marrow transplant.

You are not the first I have told these stories to. Please think about these people and schedule a blood donation today! While you are there ask about marrow donation."

J'C: In response to an exhortation to register as an organ donor. I think the OP would be better off taking his campaign to the religious boards, hesh is preaching to the choir on the atheism boards, but at least hesh is preaching.

Religion and atheism

Atheism vs Anti-religious :

"But for my friends that basically keep their religion inside their church, I have no interest at all in dissuading them from their beliefs no matter how ridiculous the beliefs seem to me. Their beliefs obviously help them in some way to be the good people that I find them to be. And by the way none of them are 'lower orders.' There is no such thing in my thinking. Many of them discuss atheism and their religion with me because they know I respect their beliefs and have no intention of belittling them or suggesting that their religion is irrational. A very good friend of mine told me that (the Catholic) God even listens to the prayers of atheists, so if he asks me to pray for him I do. It actually saves me the time of figuring out a nice way of telling him what he needs to know."

I really don't understand the fundie atheists and the anti-God atheists like The Fearsome Four who are anti-God and anti-religion. They pick the worst examples of religious idiocy and try to tar all religion with it. Perhaps awareness raising is a benefit that balances the ossification of belief that the dispute causes. But maybe ossifying a monolith is not changing anything.

So that all children can fly

uuworld.org : watching the evidence change: "In the hours and days after November 4, a saying made its way across the Internet that speaks cogently to the stream of history in which we now stand:

Rosa sat so that Martin could walk. Martin walked so that Obama could run. Obama ran so that our children can fly.”

J'C: Some of the world has matured to where those identifiers of "other" are obsolete:
Negro
Woman
Infidel
Homosexual

We are not quite to the Cosmopolitan World yet where the only thing that counts is "What you can do for your Country" or "planet" these days. But that day is approaching. Those parts of the world where these identifiers are still operable will find it increasingly hard to compete in the Cosmopolitan World. The reaction will unfortunately be violent, and it will be interesting to see how we the cosmopolitans will handle the violence. We obviously have the hoof and mouth solution, tried already in Iraq. I wonder if there is any other. It may be that quarantine will work as those dysfunctional societies destroy themselves, and they will. It will be hard to stand by and watch, but is there any other choice? Is the nuclear hoof and mouth solution kinder? The "neutron" bomb to reduce fallout?
Is there an answer? The question is getting unavoidable.

Jennifer Lin improvs piano magic | Video on TED.com

Jennifer Lin improvs piano magic | Video on TED.com

An incredible pianist improvises on 5 random notes.

Work in progress I am still trying to learn how to embed the video.

Doonesbury on ringtones.

Gary Trudeau has been doing a bit on Jimmy Thudpucker riding the wave of pop ringtones. Today's is That Was The Year that was in four panels.

Text of President Barack Obama's inaugural address - Yahoo! News

Text of President Barack Obama's inaugural address - Yahoo! News:

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus — and non-believers. We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth; and because we have tasted the bitter swill of civil war and segregation, and emerged from that dark chapter stronger and more united, we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; that as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself; and that America must play its role in ushering in a new era of peace.

"Emphasis added.

J'C: Unbelievable! --and non-believers!!! Atheists, pagans, pantheists, Buddhists, All those people who can think for themselves without some little tinhorn in a fancy dress in an overdecorated balcony telling them what they are supposed to think. Perhaps some of them can think of ways to make stem cells do what God cannot do, that is cure amputees. Others might be able to eliminate our dependence on fossil fuels, without worrying about whose oil fields don't pay anymore and whose coal plants no longer pollute the air we breathe. Can we make solar power cheap enough to power a hydrogen economy? We have the cars already, all we need is H2 fueling stations, and H2 cheap enough to compete with Gas. Lest the intelligent Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus get on my case, there are probably a majority of you who will participate as well now that your Wingnuts are under control, and their "Faith Based Government" is not driving everything including intelligent thought underground.

My few bucks to the campaign has just paid itself back a thousandfold. He has the mandate, and I suspect he will find the courage to make the politically difficult moves to make it all happen. For the first time in 8 years, I will say I am once again proud to be an American.

Pascal’s Wager - fler

Beliefnet Discussions - Beliefnet.com: "fler0002
1/15/2004 11:15 PM

And we also discover that only those who believed in God and gave their lives to Him will enter into heaven and those who didn't will go to the torment of hell... what then??

What is it that you find to love in a deity that threatens you with eternal torment if you make one wrong decision?

Does a perfect deity sound like one who feels that it is just to torment you forever because of a choice you made based on the limited knowledge, and some erroneous knowledge, that you had when you made the choice?

Or does it sound like a shell game designed to play upon your fears in order to persuade you to believe?

Does it sound like a policy that benefits the church more than it benefits the believer?

Does it sound like a plan to intimidate the uncertain by depicting their 'loving' deity as one that is bigger, stronger, and incomparably more vicious?

Does it sound like a plan that not only creates fears of what happens after death, but also creates in humanity fears of each other? Fears of any tolerance for anything other than what is sanctified by the church. Fears that turn into hatreds. Fears that turn into witch hunts. Fears that turn into jihads, crusades, and terrorism. Fears that turn into sexual abuse.

You are welcome to indulge yourself in all those fears. I for one have chosen to use reason to dispell them. I don't have to live with those fears, and consider Pascal to be a coward."

J'C: This dismissal of Pascal is by far the best I have seen. Note the date. I have been meaning to post it for a while.

Pascal’s Wager

Wandering in the Wilderness » A Great Alternative to Pascal’s Wager : "Pascal got it wrong because if you live your life based on the idea that the Sky Gnome exists then you miss out on actually living your life. If you believe because you fear retribution when your end comes you will find yourself regretting all the things that you did not do because you lived your life in the expectation that there was a judgement and that the judgement would be based on a contradictory 2000 year old cobbled together manuscript of unknown pedigree. For those that truly believe then they reach the end of a life that was not fully lived because of the expectation that there was ’something grander’ awaiting them as a reward for not having lived their lives to the fullest.

I propose that we all start praying for the Rapture - it will decrease the number of self righteous bigoted nutjobs on the planet and since we already know what the Anti-Christ is up to we exercise our free will and give him a talk show and a product line on HSN and then go on with our lives freed from the shackles of religion.

J'C: The second best reason to ignore Pascal's Wager. See next post for fler's famous comment. I will pray for the Rapture, as my friend says God listens to Atheists, maybe it will work.

Pharyngula: Chemical replicators

Pharyngula: Chemical replicators: "We're one step closer to self-sustaining chemical replicators, similar to what would have existed a few billion years ago, before true cells evolved. Lincoln and Joyce have created a couple of relatively simple molecules that assemble themselves from even simpler precursors in a test"

J'C: A really cool experiment that shows how early RNA type chemical replicators may have come about. I loved their comment on why not now?

The world around us is swarming with the ravenous, finely-honed products of billions of years of evolution, creatures like bacteria, that would readily swoop down on any accumulation of nucleotides and consume them before these kinds of reactions could even start.