Ring Speciation

The "Dawkins" Petition - Beliefnet

Since Homo Sapiens moved out of the caves they realized that educating and socializing children was the responsibility of the parent, usually the mother. Whatever help she could avail herself of was an evolutionary necessity. Generally this meant learning the customs, mores, and, yes, the religion of the tribe. Those tribes that did not do this well were eliminated from the gene pool.

This is called evolution. It is not pretty, kind, or painless. It is continuing today. Parents will teach their children the customs, mores, and religion of their tribe, and if these teachings are incompatible with an educated, cosmopolitan larger society, there is nothing that educated, cosmopolitan society can do, except perhaps 'Cry, my beloved country' most of you are not going to make it. There are only so many jobs in the Creation Museums, even if a few Governors are convinced that such museums are worthy 'stimulus projects'

There is a clear ring speciation going on in the Human Species today. It is based on intelligent rational thinking as found in the major academic universities. The other end of the ring is the faith based traditional thinking as found in religious academies and the Texas School Board. The mating rituals are different enough that speciation, that is lack of interbreeding will become more and more common until the two ends of the ring will be incompatible. As in all ring speciation the intermediates will breed in both directions, and there will be movement within the ring.

Selfish Gene?

Original sin and the human genome - Origins of Life - Beliefnet Community:

"In some species the individual is the selection unit. For these organisms your assertion is correct. However for social animals the selection unit is the herd or pack or in the case of humans the parish or village. Until very recently banishment from the parish or village was a death sentence. I am not even talking evolutionary time here. Before gunpowder, a lone human was a dead human.

Even today shunning, disfellowshipping, and excommunication can be a cause for suicide in one form or another, drugs, drink, gun, or bridge. If one has been indoctrinated from birth that God loves only those who conform the the dogmas of the parish, being unable to comply for one reason or another is a serious psychological issue. Some are strong enough to find other groups to provide the necessary community, schools and colleges are a common way to deal with loss of faith in one's milk church, which is why so many religious groups try to control the school environment for their children.

If evolution is forbidden as a subject matter, the myth of original sin can be believably insisted upon with its requisite savior. It is no wonder that the religious areas of the country are so active in insuring that special creation is at least taught as an alternative to evolution."

On Wolves and Poodles.

'not all speciation was caused by mutations'- Beliefnet:

6. How did these 'losses' become fixed in a population? (Remember, you don't have Betty BigCat Breeder there deliberately breeding these cats for specific traits; this is a wild population like wolves. And in the thousands of years that wolves have been breeding, there hasn't been a single instance of them producing a Miniature Poodle.) What evidence can you produce to substantiate your opinion?
McAtheist

Thanks.

Religion and Evolution

Keeping state out of church? - Beliefnet :

"Religion is one of the ways societies evolve. It is where social paradigms are tested and worked out. As long as they are not accepting public money, except for the tax exemption, a bad idea imo but historically entrenched, they can do anything they want inside the church. Including educating or not educating their children as they please. If they wish to discriminate on any basis they wish inside the church that is no business of society.

I don't even have a problem with political action by churches, although I wish there were a way to tax their political action funds, but religions have the same rights as any other 'person' in our society to create a society that they want. It is up to other 'persons' in the society to insure that dysfunctional religious ideas do not affect the rest of the society. This is how evolution works."

Creator???

Theists Welcome?Beliefnet:

"I don't know how the universe wasn't created, nor do I claim to know how it was. I just find it much more likely that natural forces about which we know a lot is much more likely than some sort of creator. As theists are fond of pointing out many constants have to be just right and many conditions also just right if a creator is intending eventually to produce a species in herm own image. (Does the hubris of that bother you from either side of the image, as it does me.)

I find a quantum generated universe in which life evolved on at least one blue speck of rock much more likely than a creator capable of creating that universe just so the creator could look at hermself in the mirror.

Abiogenesis

Valid Criticism or Projection? - Beliefnet

Almost: Life, consciousness and intelligence are well explained properties resulting from ordinary reactions of organic chemistry. Under suitable conditions of, in the case of the third rock from the sun, water, land and an energy source which may have been geothermal or solar organic chemicals get concentrated and react. Once sufficient quantities of adenine, cytosine, guanine, thymine, and uracil get concentrated in a local area they begin to form long chains of pairs of bases. Like any chemical process some are more stable than others and the more stable forms predominate by using up material from the less stable forms. We can only guess at what some of the stable forms looked like but eventually a chain we now identify as DNA became dominant because not only was it extremely stable but it could replicate itself, and use a similar chain we now identify as RNA to help it manage its environment. From that point it is only a matter of time, lots of it, for consciousness and intelligence to be manifested as we see in several land and marine animals.

A little bit 'o Neanderthal

A little bit Neanderthal

Did God make Herm Chosen People as sex toys for horny Neandertal hunters. I know God had little respect for human women but this is ridiculous.

No Neandertal mitochondrial DNA in Homo sapiens. Ergo no Neanderthal women bred with Homo Sapiens men. 1-4% Neanderthal DNA in Homo sapiens. This must be from male Neanderthals breeding with Homo sapiens females.

A bit of speculation: It is my understanding that the Neanderthals were a superior apex predator in every way to Homo sapiens, except for adaptability. Neanderthals had no need to adapt. Everything including Homo sapiens stayed out of their way if possible.

Now if a bunch of Neanderthal guys were on an extended hunt far from the caves, and happened upon a Homo sapiens female, a little fun and games involving bestiality (by their standards) might have been more useful than the quantity of food available. If she managed to escape some of those Neanderthal genes might have been advantageous and were conserved.

From the SciAm report:
Researchers sequencing Neandertal DNA have concluded that between 1 and 4 percent of the DNA of people today who live outside Africa came from Neandertals, the result of interbreeding between Neandertals and early modern humans.

The finding contrasts sharply with Pääbo's previous work. In 1997 he and his colleagues sequenced the first Neandertal mitochondrial DNA . Mitochondria are the cell’s energy-generating organelles, and they have their own DNA, which is distinct from the much longer DNA sequence that resides in the cell’s nucleus. Their analysis revealed that Neandertals had not made any contributions to modern mitochondrial DNA.

Idealism and Atheism

Owning Your Own Shadow - Beliefnet

You seem to have an idealistic streak - that is surprising to me.
newchurchguy

Idealism and optimism seem to me to be necessary for a life without God. There is no salvation that I don't make for myself. This life is all I can expect, so I can't waste it on worthless that is non-ideal activities. And the legacy that I leave for others had better be beautiful, interesting and useful. I can't think of a way to do that without an idealistic outlook on life. I think humans are evolving into a better more idealistic species, not all of us, but I want to insure that those who are important to me are part of that evolution.

Carbon as God.

Circumstantial evidence for God - Beliefnet

I don't believe that the order, complexity and information content of even a single-celled bacterium, let alone you and me, is the result of chance, no matter how long it might have taken (and that turns out to be a very narrow window anyway, some 130 million years).
stardustpilgrim

J'C: "22,000,000 to 1 Odds happen every week in the various lottos. The structure of the carbon atom guarantees that every weird chemical structure in the liquid water world will be generated frequently. (You might have a better argument that God created Carbon. In Herm own image by the way, ever changing, impossible to pin down in anything from a buckytube to a diamond to a human.) That one of those weird chemical structures found a way to hide in a lipid balloon and make copies of itself seems to me inevitable and indeed seems to have happened several times a few billion years ago. That one of them, DNA, was so stable that it ate everything else in sight is the way evolution works.

It isn't really chance, carbon's theory as well as evolution's is try everything. Most of it won't work but who cares.

To try and fail, is at least to learn, To fail to try is to suffer the inestimable loss of what might have been.
Chester Bernard

Please excuse the anthropomorphizing of carbon and evolution. They don't care but it makes a better story."

What is a Human?

The Human Condition, - Beliefnet

Can you make a reasoned argument as to what is Man? No.
2bme

J'C: "It is obvious you are speaking for yourself in answering this question. I have no problem with a reasoned argument as to what is a human. First of all your use of 'Man' is the major part of your problem. People come in two sexes, and as KW would point out also two genders. Any reasoned argument about humans must take those facts into account. A human is a social, sexual, reasoning animal. The primary evolutionary advantage of humans was their abstract and symbolic reasoning capability which allowed them to pass up predation and gathering for herding and farming. This lead to large social groupings that needed complex interaction rules that is morality to allow the groups to function and accomplish all of the chores necessary for the society to grow and prosper. Many of the chores consisted of preserving the lore and knowledge of not only the tools and techniques, but the socializing and educating of the tribe. Another function was the integrity of the society, both in protecting it from intrusions and from internal sedition. All of this taxed the abstract and symbolic reasoning capability of the people to the utmost and some found ways to delegate the most difficult of these chores to tribal leaders, shamans, and ultimately to God.

Gender roles were dictated by biology for much of human history, women were in charge of the education and nurturing of the children and social cohesion. They were tied to the hearth by biology and their substantial economic contribution was home based. Clothing and tool manufacturing especially. The social cohesion provided by the casual conversation at the water source, the marketplace and the church.

Men were less tied to the hearth and frankly less valuable to the community so were assigned the dangerous chores of herding and predator control including the smartest and most dangerous predator, other humans. If things were going well men had time to think about more abstract things like why things were as they were, and how to understand their world so that they could make it better. Some were unable to participate in this intellectual activity and 'built the Cathedral' by sweeping the floor. Or protected the village by fighting on the periphery.

All changed radically when medicine and hygiene made fecundity of women perhaps an undesirable feature, and women were able to limit family size and have a decent chance of one child equaling one productive adult. The world is still shaking this major evolutionary change out."

The usefulness of God and religion was in keeping the floor sweepers and cannon fodder focused on the glorious afterlife. Valhalla, Asgard , Heaven, all with pie in the sky after you die, particularly if you died in the service of God. Please note that this is of need only for males who are taught from infancy to serve God and the shaman in any way they could, and if they could do nothing else do what the shaman says and God will take care of them in the afterlife. They were given strict rules to keep them under the shaman's control, and internalized their worthlessness relative to the shaman and God. This works very well for those that are unable to deal with the human male condition of subservience and worthlessness. The streets of heaven are paved with gold, and the whole universe is a playpen. God only knows how they would learn to play in that playpen, but they never think about that. And as for all the beautiful virgins without the necessary physical equipment you can't even jerk off.

We will see how it all shakes out. The God guys are out-breeding their resources, with significant help from the Pope, although the Pope is also insuring that AIDS will help with the population problem. Those controlling their breeding also control most of the resources. It will be interesting to see what they do with them. The main resource being intellectual of course, China, parts of India, Europe, and parts of the US are using those intellectual resources very effectively. How they will "share" will probably be ugly.

Optimism - The world is predictable, therefore I am.

Optimism - Beliefnet

The dissonance arises in that you cannot really answer, 'Why is the world predictable?' The world is predictable, therefore I am.
Godman

J'C: "You just answered it. The world has natural laws. The world exists in a certain position relative to its major energy source. This insures that the observed fact of carbon based life is highly probable, and once started life gets more mobile and smarter until therefore I am. It was not inevitable, the bears or the cetaceans, might still win as humans kill themselves off, and there will always be cockroaches."

Talk about the blind squirrel.

Dawkins - Literary prize winner or bigot or both.

Dawkins' Trashy Tract - Beliefnet

You've done a mostly decent job of trashing the man's book, but what of the author, himself?
exploringinside

J'C: "I have 5 books by Dr. Dawkins on my shelf which I think are excellent interpretations of evolutionary science for the reader of average or higher intelligence. I bought The God Delusion without reading reviews based on the rest of his books. As an evolutionary scientist and popularizer of his field I think he is exemplary. As an atheist I think he is a bigot. As a responsible person I feel a necessity to combat bigotry from whatever corner it comes from. As a responsible atheist I resent the fact that his bigotry is giving ordinarily responsible theists a hobby horse to ride roughshod over atheism and atheists.

Just as I hold responsible Christians accountable for speaking out against the bigotry of the Pat Robertsons and Fred Phelps of the Christian world. I think that responsible atheists are on the front line for combating atheist fundamentalism and bigotry. We are a small and politically marginal minority, and have to work intelligently under the radar to achieve the changes that are necessary. Strident hate, bigotry, and mindless fundamentalism does great damage to the cause of rationality and humanistic values in todays polarized world. Someone must pay attention."

As I noted on the eSKEPTIC blog promoting Dawkins for the Noble Prize

Polemics are not literature. If Dawkins could somehow get the brain fart of “The God Delusion” out of his bibliography he might have a chance. Unfortunately it is stinking up his name if not the excellent work he has done in explaining a difficult science to a skeptical world.

The Wolf in the Parlor

Facebook | Home: "I just finished The Wolf in the Parlor by Jon Franklin. Ostensibly about people and dogs. He does that well with a radical theory about the relationship. But it is really an autobiography of a science journalist with Pulitzers and how he thinks.

Science these days is really the study of trees or maybe even the branches or leaves. Thanks to the journalists like Jon for exploring the forest. Highly recommended."

His radical theory is that humans and dogs are a natural symbiote that enabled both to survive the early Holocene megafauna extinction at the end of the last ice age. The humans supplied the intelligent control mechanisms and the dogs the basic emotional instincts. His speculation, even he does not call it a theory, is the symbiosis atrophied the cerebrum of the dogs, as humans did the thinking better, and atrophied the emotional centers in the humans, as humans allowed the dogs to distinguish friend from foe, provide the alerts for things that go bump in the night so the humans can deal with them, among other important emotionally based activities. He speculates that this is the cause of a 20% loss of brain mass in dogs, they no longer needed to know how to hunt, think or control their emotions, humans were much better at that, and the cause of 10% loss of brain mass in humans, as dogs were better at handling the emotional pack management issues.

An amusing hint at the end of the book: Zoloft or a dog, take your pick.

The Creation of Eve

The birth of Eve - Beliefnet:

"Agnostic wrote:

You're absolutely right. Clearly Eve was a divine creation, separate from Adam. Eve was created in the divine image of God Herself. In contrast, Adam evolved from primates with lower intelligence. It should be obvious that women are innately superior to males.

The Bible shows this. The very name for 'the Lord' is Yahvah. Eve in Hebrew is Chavah. If you look at the original Hebrew letters, they are even more nearly identical.

Each time a female is born, it is another divine creation. Males, on the other hand, bear far too much similarity to apes of lesser intelligence. It should be obvious.

The Genesis story shows God leading the animals and beasts to Adam for a potential mate, because Adam was just an animal. Adam almost chose a dog for a mate. But God, in Her infinite wisdom, realized Adam was not capable of living without divine help, so God gave a replica of Herself to watch over Adam.

This is clear from the Hebrew word, usually translated as 'help mate' It is 'Ezer,' a word which does mean help. But in the Bible, it only appears as a term for God Herself, or for Eve. David says, 'God is my Help (Ezer)' Eve, the Woman, was Adam's Help (Ezer). It was Adam who needed help, divine assistance. Eve was provided. She did not evolve. She had a separate divine creation.

Scientists generally are correct. Adam evolved. But religion is also correct, Eve was a Divine Creation. All the violence is the world is caused by men, who have barely evolved past their lower primate origins. Even with divine assistance from women, they often are unable to advance beyond their atavistic nature."

J'C: In light of Harold Bloom's theory that "J" was a woman, the irony in Genesis 2 is, with this post, beautifully explained.

Blind, Pitiless Indifferent Universe.

The Gradual Illumination of the Mind: Scientific American: "In one of the most existentially penetrating statements ever made by a scientist, Richard Dawkins concluded that 'the universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.'"

Which in its blind indifference produced a species that could invent a God which shares that blind pitiless indifference. Why anyone would worship either is a mystery to me. We should celebrate the fact that we miraculously resulted from the ability to survive of countless ancestors, and can do our part to make sure that countless descendants, direct and collateral, live in a more loving and intelligently managed world than we do. We should not be blind, pitiless, and indifferent to our responsibilities to them. In other words we should not let that blind, pitiless, indifferent God manage their lives.

Atheistic Evolution - Discuss Atheism - Beliefnet Community

Atheistic Evolution

I'm curious how you all account for your own existense sans god.
Godman

Somewhere circa 3.5 billion years ago a hungry strand of RNA found that by hiding in a lipid membrane it could duplicate itself and split off another lipid membrane to hide the copy. It was better at doing so than any of the other replicators around and made a lot of copies of itself and survived this was my first ancestor. One of these copies had a mistake in copying and was even better at co opting lipids and survived even better this was a later ancestor. Later another ancestor found out that DNA was better at replicating without errors, and survived better than RNA predecessors. Much later another ancestor found a better way to survive and prosper. The key here is that there is an unbroken line of organisms that survived long enough to reproduce including my parents, that accounts for my own existence sans God. Improbable? Yes indeed. One might even call it a miracle. But it was a miracle with no God required."

Creationist Quiz

The Secret - Origins of Life

EarthScientist: Let's play match the creationist, draw a line from the YEC creationist to their real name!

Jan Peczkis - - - - - - 57/trilobyte/YEC

Stuart Nevins - - - - - John Woodmorappe

Karl Crawford - - - - - Steve 'not stone cold' Austin"
..........................................................

Blü: EarthScientist

Karl and faith will be able to solve two of your three puzzles but they'll never work out the third one.

............................................................

SIS: ? But if you know two of the three doesn't the third Q have only one remaining answer?

Oh, I see now, even if it is totally obvious to everyone else that only one answer remains, creationists still won't get it.

That's a profound insight, Blu. Quite profound.

Scientific Illiteracy in America

Scientific Illiteracy in America - Science & Religion - Beliefnet Community:

science writers Chris Mooney and Sheril Kirshenbaum argue that America's future is deeply endangered by the scientific illiteracy of its citizens

"The scientific illiteracy of American citizens is a self correcting problem. Scientific illiterates will not be able to compete in a modern technological society and will follow in the fossil footsteps of other non-competitive species. This is known as bad luck."

Thanks to RAH for the bad luck quote. The complete quote is relevant here

Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty. This is known as "bad luck"
From the Notebooks of Lazarus Long,1973.

This small minority, is much bigger now. It is still opposed by the majority, but there are enough of them now, and they gravitate to positions of importance in the society due to their skills, and the opposition, being stupid if organized, cannot effectively oppose them any longer. The majority will stand on street corners waving signs and honking horns full of noise and fury signifying nothing. The minority will be on the internet, the phones and making life better for all that care to participate. Unfortunately participation takes brains and the ability and willingness to use them. It will be interesting to see how long those with neither the willingness nor ability can hang on on in their service and manual labor jobs that are rapidly disappearing. The economy is improving but unemployment is approaching double digits. Are the resulting couch potatoes going to get off the couch even to breed?

FOXP2 and the Evolution of Language

FOXP2 and the Evolution of Language: "The molecular evolution of FOXP2

Now let's move on to 2002 when Enard et al (authors include Svante Paabo & Anthony Monaco) (6) published a paper describing work that investigated the evolution of FOXP2. The first thing they note is the extremely highly conserved nature of FOXP2. We have already seen that in all cases, in all species investigated, the amino acid mutated in the KE family is identical. The major splice form of the protein encoded by the gene (it has a pair of alternatively spliced exons) is 715 amino acids long and the protein is identical with no differences whatsoever in chimpanzee, gorilla and rhesus monkey. The mouse FOXP2 differs in just one amino acid from these three species. However, human FOXP2 differs from gorilla, chimp and rhesus macaque in two further amino acids (and thus differs from mouse in three amino acids out of 715). So, in 75 million years since the divergence of mouse and chimpanzee lineages only one change has occurred in FOXP2, (and that equates to 150 million years of evolution as we don't know whether the mutation occurred in the mouse or the primate lineage) whilst in the six million years since the divergence of man and chimpanzee lineages two changes have occurred in the human lineage.

Fig 1: Silent and replacement nucleotide substitutions mapped on a phylogeny of primates. Bars represent nucleotide"

I posted this mainly for Fig 1 which shows very clearly the stability of FOXP2 until the Chimp Homo divergence.

The Bears win again.

Bears in the Adirondacks Defeat BearVault Food-Protection Container - NYTimes.com: "In most BearVault break-ins, Yellow-Yellow’s radio collar indicated she had been in the area. Eventually, campers began spotting her from afar rifling canisters. There have been no reports of her threatening anyone.

So last year Mr. Hogan introduced the 450, a two-pound cylinder costing about $60, and a larger version, the 500, each with a second tab. On them, a camper must press in one tab, turn the lid partway, then press the second tab to remove the lid. “We thought, ‘O.K., well, one bump didn’t work so maybe two bumps will thwart her,’ ” he said.

But Yellow-Yellow figured that lid out, too.

Last month, her achievements were noted in an article in Adirondack Explorer. And she now appears to have apprentices; campers have reported seeing other bears getting into their BearVaults."

Go Bears!